Bishops: The rising economic inequality of our society is mounting

[triumphguy]

If being wealthy was all about talent then why are the talentless making so much money?

Miley twerks and makes a million bucks.

If being wealthy was all about talent then why has income distribution changed - talent always exists - the ration shouldn’t change if it’s about talent.

If being wealthy was all about talent then why are so many talented people making so little money? Why do real artists die poor, while the Damian Hursts get rich?

If it’s about skill and talent why are towns like Detroit dying, towns where there was so much skill and talent, and where a skilled man could keep his wife home, and send his kids to college AND pay off the mortgage?

I USED to want to be rich. I quit teaching and went into investments/finance in order to get rich. I had my own agency - a “shop” with 30 advisers at one time.

My mentors told me it was all about desire, focus, clarity of purpose etc. I bought into all that.

But it wasn’t - it was about greed, turning a blind eye, ripping off people lower down the ladder than you.

I got out before I lost my soul.

But I was friends with people making $500,000/month or more, and I wanted to be like them I partied with them, my kids played with their kids, went on trips to Hawaii etc etc.

I wasn’t doing as well because there were games I wouldn’t play.

My eyes opened when one told me that my belief in Jesus wasn’t strong enough; that Jesus wanted me to win, to be successful, to reach all my dreams.

I said, “If that’s the case why did He die on a cross, and why did his followers either flee from him, or stay and get martyred?”

That was the last conversation I had with my so-called mentors. I left soon after, went solo and then did what I could to get back into teaching.

I also went to confession.

2008 and aftermath confirmed to me that the banking, insurance and investment industry is the world’s biggest scam, and those who make the money are the biggest scam artists.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If being wealthy was all about talent then why are the talentless making so much money?

Miley twerks and makes a million bucks.

If being wealthy was all about talent then why has income distribution changed - talent always exists - the ration shouldn’t change if it’s about talent.

If being wealthy was all about talent then why are so many talented people making so little money? Why do real artists die poor, while the Damian Hursts get rich?

If it’s about skill and talent why are towns like Detroit dying, towns where there was so much skill and talent, and where a skilled man could keep his wife home, and send his kids to college AND pay off the mortgage?

I USED to want to be rich. I quit teaching and went into investments/finance in order to get rich. I had my own agency - a “shop” with 30 advisers at one time.

My mentors told me it was all about desire, focus, clarity of purpose etc. I bought into all that.

But it wasn’t - it was about greed, turning a blind eye, ripping off people lower down the ladder than you.

I got out before I lost my soul.

But I was friends with people making $500,000/month or more, and I wanted to be like them I partied with them, my kids played with their kids, went on trips to Hawaii etc etc.

I wasn’t doing as well because there were games I wouldn’t play.

My eyes opened when one told me that my belief in Jesus wasn’t strong enough; that Jesus wanted me to win, to be successful, to reach all my dreams.

I said, “If that’s the case why did He die on a cross, and why did his followers either flee from him, or stay and get martyred?”

That was the last conversation I had with my so-called mentors. I left soon after, went solo and then did what I could to get back into teaching.

I also went to confession.

2008 and aftermath confirmed to me that the banking, insurance and investment industry is the world’s biggest scam, and those who make the money are the biggest scam artists.

I enjoyed reading that. I once had a promising career as a research psychologist, but the Holy Spirit spoke to me and convinced me to give it all up and seek a prayerful life in solitude–I never looked back!

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock #37
What are these God-given talents? The ability to compete? Greed and the abnormal desire for power and prestige?

All of his false ideas about communism in the Gospels without an iota of justification, having been refuted, he is quite unable to even understand much less appreciate what the Gospels and the Church are teaching.

Note especially the extraordinary progress in lifting people out of extreme poverty between 1990 and 2010 – by half as a share of the total population in developing countries, from 43% to 21% – a reduction of almost 1 billion people which he can’t even understand, and that not by sucking up to “people refusing to work (who) would be guaranteed a roof over their heads, free food.”

With regard to the material world, the Parable of the Talents is about capital, investment, entrepreneurship, and the proper use of economic resources. It is a direct rebuttal to those who insist that business success and Christian living are contradictory. The Parable of the Talents illustrates the value of the work talent and enterprise as well as the evils people exhibit.

1. “There is the emphasis on the ‘talent’, which is a measure of value.
2. “The trading activity of the two stewards is important. Christ praises them for the energy, alertness, and perseverance they demonstrate in making a truly significant profit (they have doubled the original sum). There is a reference to accountability which is crucial to any business.
3. “Then the nuanced criticism of fear: ‘I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground.’ This fear leads the lazy steward to avoid the risks and obstacles that are a key part of entrepreneurial work.
4. “There is the clear reference to the financial system. The lazy steward at least could have placed the ‘money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.’ ”

“We can thus affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Just as Christ’s Parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, so does the Parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].

 

[Robert_Sock]

All of his false ideas about communism in the Gospels without an iota of justification, having been refuted, he is quite unable to even understand much less appreciate what the Gospels and the Church are teaching.

Note especially the extraordinary progress in lifting people out of extreme poverty between 1990 and 2010 – by half as a share of the total population in developing countries, from 43% to 21% – a reduction of almost 1 billion people which he can’t even understand, and that not by sucking up to “people refusing to work (who) would be guaranteed a roof over their heads, free food.”

With regard to the material world, the Parable of the Talents is about capital, investment, entrepreneurship, and the proper use of economic resources. It is a direct rebuttal to those who insist that business success and Christian living are contradictory. The Parable of the Talents illustrates the value of the work talent and enterprise as well as the evils people exhibit.

1. “There is the emphasis on the ‘talent’, which is a measure of value.
2. “The trading activity of the two stewards is important. Christ praises them for the energy, alertness, and perseverance they demonstrate in making a truly significant profit (they have doubled the original sum). There is a reference to accountability which is crucial to any business.
3. “Then the nuanced criticism of fear: ‘I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground.’ This fear leads the lazy steward to avoid the risks and obstacles that are a key part of entrepreneurial work.
4. “There is the clear reference to the financial system. The lazy steward at least could have placed the ‘money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.’ ”

“We can thus affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Just as Christ’s Parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, so does the Parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].

What does any of what you say have to do with answering my question that you quoted?

The parable of the talents has nothing to do with earthly entrepreneurship, but Heavenly! It’s about using our spirituality and time spent here on earth wisely, so that we may enter into the Heavenly Kingdom! The rewards are paid to us in our Heavenly home, and the punishment is eternal damnation in Hell! Next you’re be saying that Christ himself was an earthly entrepreneur! I highly recommend you read The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas a Kempis! In it, you will find the common theme that we ought to have perfect contempt for this earthly life, so that we may enjoy the eternal rewards of Heaven.

 

[Abu]

As the revered Fr John A Harvey points out, a PARABLE is a ‘short story based on a familiar life experience used to teach a spiritual lesson. It resembles the fable and the allegory. Jesus used the parable many times in his public ministry. “Why do you teach them in parables?” his disciples asked him. “Because,” he replied, “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them” (Matthew 13:10-I1). It was a means of teaching his doctrine especially to those who accepted him as Messiah. (Etym. Greek parabolē, comparison, parable; literally, a throwing beside, juxtaposition.)’
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

Now, Robert Sock is claiming that “the parable of the talents has nothing to do with earthly entrepreneurship” so that Our Saviour is wrong to show us what is good and what is evil in a familiar life experience of stewardship, so that we can achieve heaven! No wonder he is so confused as to what is right and what is wrong! Sock claims to know more than Fr Anthony G Percy who has written so wisely to enlighten us, whereas Sock only darkens the context.

All of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as Sock can learn from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?” Fancy claiming that Christ misleads us by His praise of good deeds and His condemnation of evil deeds as so clearly expressed in the Gospel parables!

No wonder his ideas of entrepreneurship and free- enterprise are so awry.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As the revered Fr John A Harvey points out, a PARABLE is a ‘short story based on a familiar life experience used to teach a spiritual lesson. It resembles the fable and the allegory. Jesus used the parable many times in his public ministry. “Why do you teach them in parables?” his disciples asked him. “Because,” he replied, “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them” (Matthew 13:10-I1). It was a means of teaching his doctrine especially to those who accepted him as Messiah. (Etym. Greek parabolē, comparison, parable; literally, a throwing beside, juxtaposition.)’
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

Now, Robert Sock is claiming that “the parable of the talents has nothing to do with earthly entrepreneurship” so that Our Saviour is wrong to show us what is good and what is evil in a familiar life experience of stewardship, so that we can achieve heaven! No wonder he is so confused as to what is right and what is wrong! Sock claims to know more than Fr Anthony G Percy who has written so wisely to enlighten us, whereas Sock only darkens the context.

All of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as Sock can learn from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?” Fancy claiming that Christ misleads us by His praise of good deeds and His condemnation of evil deeds as so clearly expressed in the Gospel parables!

No wonder his ideas of entrepreneurship and free- enterprise are so awry.[highlight mine]

“A PARABLE is a ‘short story based on a familiar life experience used to teach a spiritual lesson.” So, what is the spiritual lesson in the Parable of the Talents?

 

[Tigg]

I honestly do not believe this will ever change without the majority of the country, and indeed the world, being evangelized and converting to the Church. I do not believe that there will be true peace and true justice in the world until our Blessed Lord returns to reign. However, short of that, the best we are going to be able to do is when all are attempting to live a good Christian life. True peace, and true justice comes from Christ. It cannot be legislated, or created through some social program.

When all are converted and are sincere in their vocations as Christian men and women, we will see these things improve.

The two primary reasons for the existence of the Church are to worship God and to make saints. Focusing our efforts in the Church towards: 1) giving God due and proper worship; 2) the evangelization of all; and, 3) teaching the Faith with great clarity and fidelity, will yield far better results than any governmental social program that the USCCB might support.

Yes, which begs the question as to why the USCCB leans to the political left and statism. While many of those in that bureaucracy make statements on issues that are clearly matters of prudential judgment, they simultaneously advocate for specific legislation. How confusing is that! Especially since they also said in ’86 in *Economic Justice for All *– “The obligation to evaluate social and economic activity from the viewpoint of the poor and the powerless arises from the radical command to love one’s neighbor as one’s self.”

While we all agree with this, the spiritual dimension is lacking and needs to be taught by the shepherds. One would think that they would first promote a faith-filled spirit life through the sacraments and liturgy in order that we might learn firsthand just how to love one’s neighbor in a radical way. That love would also ensure that the poor be evangelized and catechized which ultimately is more important than economic justice. It would also answer Robt Sock’s comment on greed, and the abnormal desire for power and prestige. Saints have learned to set that all aside.

Enough with the politics, I say which can cause further alienation among Christians themselves. You nailed it when you wrote, “True peace, and true justice comes from Christ. It cannot be legislated, or created through some social program. “ It can only come from the heart of man, convicted by Christ, and not the government.

 

[JMJ91]

I’m not asking that they help the poor; my point was that society needs to implement a fair and just economic system where the gross inequality between the rich and the poor is largely eliminated. There will be the poor among us always, but extreme poverty must be eliminated; extreme poverty is a crime against humanity!

The attached photo was originally posted by “gracepoole;” it is not meant to shock, but to educate why extreme poverty is on par with the starvation of Jews in Nazi Germany:

Most of us who think we are Christians, but do not speak out against the oppression of the poor, while storing up mammon on earth, or living a life of comfort and ease will be ashamed on judgment day.

 

[ncashion]

I think that saying that those living in extreme poverty may be living in sin is to blame the victim. It also does nothing to to promote efforts to eliminate poverty, but maintains the status quo–people feel justified to turn a blind eye.

Extreme poverty can be eliminate with an international effort and planning. Economic systems can be restructured to end the huge inequality between the rich and those in extreme poverty. Urban renewal projects need to get funded, and new jobs created. Mandatory HS education of all children needs to be put into practice. Etc, etc.

The big reward would be a super-strong economy when everybody is contributing to society! New high-tech products could be manufactured, and the standard of living would increase for everyone. Self help and upper education could be just a computer away.

Hi Robert,

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I did not definitively claim that all the poor are living in sin, however it is FACT that we are all sinners, except for Christ and the Virgin Mary. That was my point. I clearly stated that I can not judge that these people are living in sin, just as I cannot judge that you are without being given definitive evidence supported by the Church’s teachings. With that said I think history shows that a strong economy will not come from your example above and I also think our Founding Fathers would have agreed. Unfortunately, governments are run by sinners (as we are all sinners) and your idea of a utopia will not work. I advise reading St. Thomas Moore’s Utopia for a good look into that (which was written long before Communism was even thought up). I will concede the rest of the argument to those that have already responded to you in length above this response. Once more I think you need to concentrate on the Christian life rather than that a New World Order. Your actions combined with other Christians that do their Christian duty will go a much longer way than advocating for a global government…God bless.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi Robert,

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I did not definitively claim that all the poor are living in sin, however it is FACT that we are all sinners, except for Christ and the Virgin Mary. That was my point. I clearly stated that I can not judge that these people are living in sin, just as I cannot judge that you are without being given definitive evidence supported by the Church’s teachings. With that said I think history shows that a strong economy will not come from your example above and I also think our Founding Fathers would have agreed. Unfortunately, governments are run by sinners (as we are all sinners) and your idea of a utopia will not work. I advise reading St. Thomas Moore’s Utopia for a good look into that (which was written long before Communism was even thought up). I will concede the rest of the argument to those that have already responded to you in length above this response. Once more I think you need to concentrate on the Christian life rather than that a New World Order. Your actions combined with other Christians that do their Christian duty will go a much longer way than advocating for a global government…God bless.

So sorry for misunderstanding you! My apologies.

Who’s talking about a Utopia or a New World Order, now you’re putting words into my mouth! To talk about the elimination of extreme poverty, and putting humans to work in decent-paying jobs, is anything but Utopian–it’s a common sense way to promote the economy and to raise the standard of living for all!.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So sorry for misunderstanding you! My apologies.

Who’s talking about a Utopia or a New World Order, now you’re putting words into my mouth! To talk about the elimination of extreme poverty, and putting humans to work in decent-paying jobs, is anything but Utopian–it’s a common sense way to promote the economy and to raise the standard of living for all!.

It’s the other way around, and always has been. The way you eliminate as much poverty as can be eliminated, and the way to provide decent paying jobs is to facilitate improvements in the economy. That’s the exact opposite of what the current government is doing.

Remember, FDR tried raising prices and wages by fiat through the fascistic NRA, and it failed miserably.

 

[Morwenna]

• [44] “And all they that believed, were together, and had all things common. [45] Their possessions and goods they sold, and divided them to all, according as every one had need.”
  -Acts 2:44-45*

This is communism; people worshiping Christ in common, with all their needs satisfied. The communism of old, like it was in the former Soviet Union, was not communism at all, but oppression and the suppression of religious liberties. When I think of communism today, I think about monks living in a monastery; each with their needs met, and not asking for any type of luxury or worldly pleasure; all worshiping God in peace and calm. (How I wish I would have joined such a religious community when I was younger and healthier!)

Do I think that communism can work today? Yes! But I think of a two-tier system; one tier that is guided by capitalistic principles, which would include the the middle and upper-classes, and the other tier where people work in common to provide their basic needs, and where ‘luxuries’ are largely absent. Such a tier of people could live in relative peace and calm. The Israeli kibbutz comes to mind here! If such a community were present here in America, I would join immediately. All I would need is a copy of The Imitation of Christ.

Such communities do exist here in America:

Bruderhof: bruderhof.com/en

Hutterites (Hutterian Brethren): hutterites.org/

I’m neither endorsing nor condemning either of these groups, merely presenting information. Neither of these groups own personal property; all property belongs to the community.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Such communities do exist here in America:

Bruderhof: bruderhof.com/en

Hutterites (Hutterian Brethren): hutterites.org/

I’m neither endorsing nor condemning either of these groups, merely presenting information. Neither of these groups own personal property; all property belongs to the community.

Do not, in any way, consider the following a critique of you.

In my view, Wyoming Catholic College is a thoroughly admirable school, but it is a long way from being a Kibbutz or encouraging anything remotely like that. I have contributed to it, and one of my granddaughters very nearly went there, but ended up at U of D instead because WCC didn’t have her desired major or minor, either one. Even so, the school is worthy of admiration.

Regarding the truly insular communities (which WCC isn’t) one has to recognize that, while it might be appropriate for some, it is in no way more virtuous or even effective to live that way. As one looks at the Bruderhof or the Hutterites or, for that matter, the Amish, one has to realize that but for those of us out in the world, they would no longer exist.

It is those out in the world that fight back the Hitlers and the Hirohitos and the Stalins that would round them all up and kill them without a moment’s hesitation.

It is those out in the world that make those cars they drive and the electricity they use and even the lawn mowers with which they maintain those lawns in their pictures. It is those out in the world that drill for the oil and work the catalytic crackers so they can put fuel in those mowers and use those plastic potato containers one sees in the photos.

Those out in the world operate the recorders’ offices that establish that they own that land they cultivate, and keep the criminals from decimating them.

I don’t begrudge those who live the insular life, but I think we need to acknowledge that a lot of people who do not live that life make their life possible.

And there is no particular merit in disparaging the protectors and the recorders and the operators of drilling rigs and cat crackers. Nor is there in disparaging those who risk the capital they earned to strengthen the arms of those who do the heavy lifting.

 

[Morwenna]

Do not, in any way, consider the following a critique of you.

In my view, Wyoming Catholic College is a thoroughly admirable school, but it is a long way from being a Kibbutz or encouraging anything remotely like that. I have contributed to it, and one of my granddaughters very nearly went there, but ended up at U of D instead because WCC didn’t have her desired major or minor, either one. Even so, the school is worthy of admiration.

Just a quick note: The WCC video is part of my signature, and is completely unrelated to my post in this thread … the three links in my signature (WCC, savior.org, and IH Radio) automatically appear whenever I post on **any **thread.

But, I do agree with the tenor of your post, otherwise.

 

[ncashion]

So sorry for misunderstanding you! My apologies.

Who’s talking about a Utopia or a New World Order, now you’re putting words into my mouth! To talk about the elimination of extreme poverty, and putting humans to work in decent-paying jobs, is anything but Utopian–it’s a common sense way to promote the economy and to raise the standard of living for all!.

Touche I admit I too placed those words as well but your idea seems very Utopian and the amount of responsibility you place in the governments of the world seem to imply that. Once more what do we consider a decent life? There are plenty that are poor that live much holier lives than those that aren’t. Furthermore what are decent jobs? There are some people that may not want to work a 9 to 5 everyday until they die…I work one because I have to not because I want to. Once more in a materialistic way if we raise the standard of living there will always be those that have less than some…so I ask where does it stop? What do we consider good to go? Who is to decide this? I believe there was a small government of the Soviet Union that already tried this? Perhaps North Korea is a good example instead…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Once more in a materialistic way if we raise the standard of living there will always be those that have less than some…so I ask where does it stop? What do we consider good to go? Who is to decide this?

Yes, there will alway be the poor among us, but extreme poverty would be eliminated. It stops when extreme poverty is eliminated, children are receiving HS educations and there are enough jobs to go around. Again, eliminating world poverty would need to be an international effort and would entail startup costs in which rich nations would need to help the poor nations, but in the end everybody would reap the benefits with a super-strong economy and the standard of living being increased for all.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Such communities do exist here in America:

Bruderhof: bruderhof.com/en

Hutterites (Hutterian Brethren): hutterites.org/

I’m neither endorsing nor condemning either of these groups, merely presenting information. Neither of these groups own personal property; all property belongs to the community.

Thanks for those two references! I will check them out!

 

[Abu]

All of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as Sock can learn from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?” Fancy claiming that Christ misleads us by His praise of good deeds and His condemnation of evil deeds as so clearly expressed in the Gospel parables!

What underpins Sock’s foolishness is his injunction that “people refusing to work would be guaranteed a roof over their heads, free food and a computer for self-help classes, but would be denied ‘luxuries.’ ”

 

[Robert_Sock]

All of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as Sock can learn from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?” Fancy claiming that Christ misleads us by His praise of good deeds and His condemnation of evil deeds as so clearly expressed in the Gospel parables!

What underpins Sock’s foolishness is his injunction that “people refusing to work would be guaranteed a roof over their heads, free food and a computer for self-help classes, but would be denied ‘luxuries.’ ”

You’re sidetracking my question with personal insults–how low will you go? Again, what are the spiritual lessons in the Parable of the Talents?

 

[Abu]

The accurate quoting of the statement emphasised by Sock is described by him as “personal insults”:
“people refusing to work would be guaranteed a roof over their heads, free food and a computer for self-help classes, but would be denied ‘luxuries.’ ”

When a statement is that foolish, then it is failing in commonsense and good sense not to point that out, for it warps reason and thought and shows the failure to understand the God-given talents which sincere people exercise in free-enterprise to benefit the whole community – which is why “….the world has lately been making extraordinary progress in lifting people out of extreme poverty.”

When a “personal insult” is thus fabricated is it any wonder that the individual concerned has a warped concept of what constitutes an “insult” for the imagination has concocted a position which is seen as “all or nothing” and imagines that everything said is beyond challenge.

Sock sets his theme, completely ignoring “spiritual lessons” by first posting (#6): *“Perhaps what is needed is an economic structure that drastically narrows the huge gap of inequality between the filthy rich and the poor souls living in extreme poverty?

“How do you propose we deal with economic inequality? It’s not simply about giving and generosity, and it never will be, again, it’s about inequality!” *

The “spiritual lessons” referring to the need to seek salvation, to which Sock wants now to divert his theme, masks the reality for Jesus warns, through His Church’s teaching, that the principle of subsidiarity is vital, and real Catholics insist on that principle. The state of societies in general has been greatly weakened through governments intervening in spheres and to extents, regardless of such principles, and clearly enunciated by the acknowledged Saint John Paul II which is why needed aid must be provided by communities so established and not supplanted by the State.

That is why his foolish statement goes against the thrust of the Church’s teaching.