Bishops: The rising economic inequality of our society is mounting
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Luke 14: 12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
It’s about our supporting the needy, not the greedy!
It’s about our supporting the needy, not the greedy!
T
Tigg
Guest
Of course, they’d get free cell phones too. Since you attempt to isolate scripture references to make your point, here’s one for you:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is **unwilling **to work shall not eat.” 2 Thess 3:10
See the problem?
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
-Matt 22:39
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
-Matt 25:41-45
No, I do not see a problem.
P
Petaro
Guest
True communism is practised by the Catholic orders. Nothing is theirs; everything is there for everyone’s use. However, the vow of poverty is not for everyone. I read all these good posters debating how to change society to a just a fair one where equity is enforced and extreme poverty is banished. I live in a country where the State provides free health cover to all in publicly funded hospitals; where pensions are paid to the aged and those unemployed. We have set up a National Disability Insurance scheme to care for all who are disabled under State care. Yet it is always never enough… there are always people who slip through the net. We do not have a universal dental health scheme, and our pollies say we cannot afford it. So all good works are the duty of the government. Yet our catholic education system; our catholic health system cares for about a third of all children; and a third of all patients in the country. We get state aid on a pro rata system. Yet it is always not enough…
Our Catholic and Christian charities all look after the extremely poor. Yet it is always not enough.
I live in an equitable capitalist country and the debate as to how far we can delegate our social conscience to the State without it becoming a nanny state and we lose responsibility for the care of the poor by paying our thirty pieces of silver in tax will always be debated by the good people amongst us, much like the posters here.
There is no elysian fields in this fallen world; it is up to us personally always to care for the poor of coin; poor of friends; poor of spirit. We cannot abdicate our conscience to the state.
Our Catholic and Christian charities all look after the extremely poor. Yet it is always not enough.
I live in an equitable capitalist country and the debate as to how far we can delegate our social conscience to the State without it becoming a nanny state and we lose responsibility for the care of the poor by paying our thirty pieces of silver in tax will always be debated by the good people amongst us, much like the posters here.
There is no elysian fields in this fallen world; it is up to us personally always to care for the poor of coin; poor of friends; poor of spirit. We cannot abdicate our conscience to the state.
H
hazcompat
Guest
Second reading
From a homily on Matthew by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
Do not adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother
Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked. For he who said: This is my body, and made it so by his words, also said: You saw me hungry and did not feed me, and inasmuch as you did not do it for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did not do it for me. What we do here in the church requires a pure heart, not special garments; what we do outside requires great dedication.
Let us learn, therefore to be men of wisdom and to honor Christ as he desires. For a person being honored finds greatest pleasure in the honor he desires, not in the honor we think best. Peter thought he was honoring Christ when he refused to let him wash his feet; but what Peter wanted was not truly an honor, quite the opposite! Give him the honor prescribed in his law by giving your riches to the poor. For God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts.
Now, in saying this I am not forbidding you to make such gifts; I am only demanding that along with such gifts and before them you give alms. He accepts the former, but he is much more pleased with the latter. In the former, only the giver profits; in the latter, the recipient does too. A gift to the Church may be taken as a form of ostentation, but an alms is pure kindness.
Of what use is it to weigh down Christ’s table with golden cups, when he himself is dying of hunger? First, fill him when he is hungry; then use the means you have left to adorn his table. Will you have a golden cup made but not give a cup of water? What is the use of providing the table with cloths woven of gold thread, and not providing Christ himself with the clothes he needs? What profit is there in that? Tell me: If you were to see him lacking the necessary food but were to leave him in that state and merely surround his table with gold, would he be grateful to you or rather would he not be angry? What if you were to see him clad in worn-out rags and stiff from the cold, and were to forget about clothing him and instead were to set up golden columns for him, saying that you were doing it in his honor? Would he not think he was being mocked and greatly insulted?
Apply this also to Christ when he comes along the roads as a pilgrim, looking for shelter. You do not take him in as your guest, but you decorate floor and walls and the capitals of the pillars. You provide silver chains for the lamps, but you cannot bear even to look at him as he lies chained in prison. Once again, I am not forbidding you to supply these adornments; I am urging you to provide these other things as well, and indeed to provide them first. No one has ever been accused for not providing ornaments, but for those who neglect their neighbor a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire and torment in the company of the demons. Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all.
RESPONSORY Matt 25:35,40; Prov 19:17
I was hungry and you gave me food;
I was thirsty and you gave me drink;
I was homeless and you took me in.
– Now I tell you this: When you did these things for the most neglected of my brothers you did them for me.
Anyone who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord.
– Now I tell you this: When you did these things for the most neglected of my brothers you did them for me.
From a homily on Matthew by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
Do not adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother
Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked. For he who said: This is my body, and made it so by his words, also said: You saw me hungry and did not feed me, and inasmuch as you did not do it for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did not do it for me. What we do here in the church requires a pure heart, not special garments; what we do outside requires great dedication.
Let us learn, therefore to be men of wisdom and to honor Christ as he desires. For a person being honored finds greatest pleasure in the honor he desires, not in the honor we think best. Peter thought he was honoring Christ when he refused to let him wash his feet; but what Peter wanted was not truly an honor, quite the opposite! Give him the honor prescribed in his law by giving your riches to the poor. For God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts.
Now, in saying this I am not forbidding you to make such gifts; I am only demanding that along with such gifts and before them you give alms. He accepts the former, but he is much more pleased with the latter. In the former, only the giver profits; in the latter, the recipient does too. A gift to the Church may be taken as a form of ostentation, but an alms is pure kindness.
Of what use is it to weigh down Christ’s table with golden cups, when he himself is dying of hunger? First, fill him when he is hungry; then use the means you have left to adorn his table. Will you have a golden cup made but not give a cup of water? What is the use of providing the table with cloths woven of gold thread, and not providing Christ himself with the clothes he needs? What profit is there in that? Tell me: If you were to see him lacking the necessary food but were to leave him in that state and merely surround his table with gold, would he be grateful to you or rather would he not be angry? What if you were to see him clad in worn-out rags and stiff from the cold, and were to forget about clothing him and instead were to set up golden columns for him, saying that you were doing it in his honor? Would he not think he was being mocked and greatly insulted?
Apply this also to Christ when he comes along the roads as a pilgrim, looking for shelter. You do not take him in as your guest, but you decorate floor and walls and the capitals of the pillars. You provide silver chains for the lamps, but you cannot bear even to look at him as he lies chained in prison. Once again, I am not forbidding you to supply these adornments; I am urging you to provide these other things as well, and indeed to provide them first. No one has ever been accused for not providing ornaments, but for those who neglect their neighbor a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire and torment in the company of the demons. Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all.
RESPONSORY Matt 25:35,40; Prov 19:17
I was hungry and you gave me food;
I was thirsty and you gave me drink;
I was homeless and you took me in.
– Now I tell you this: When you did these things for the most neglected of my brothers you did them for me.
Anyone who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord.
– Now I tell you this: When you did these things for the most neglected of my brothers you did them for me.
M
markomalley
Guest
Yet there are many who post here and many who occupy the chanceries of this country who would advocate just that.
It is surely undeniable that, when a man engages in remunerative labor, the impelling reason and motive of his work is to obtain property, and thereafter to hold it as his very own. If one man hires out to another his strength or skill, he does so for the purpose of receiving in return what is necessary for the satisfaction of his needs; he therefore expressly intends to acquire a right full and real, not only to the remuneration, but also to the disposal of such remuneration, just as he pleases.
(snip)
There naturally exist among mankind manifold differences of the most important kind; people differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition.
Quotes from Rerum Novarum
Though they won’t admit it, their goal is that which was condemned by Leo XIII:
To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy.
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Tigg
Guest
It would be quite helpful in advancing your argument if you would really address the points others make such as Abu’s well written post #60 or in #63. Your clichés are rather vague to be honest.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
When there is conflict between the teachings of Christ and the other books of the Bible, we are always obligated to go with the teachings of Christ! What Abu is trying to pass off as Divine Truth is utterly disgusting! Listen to today’s homily on the Parable of the Talents on EWTN for a balanced interpretation, especially the last 2 minutes or so.
Nowhere is Christ trying to say that we will be judged by our clever earthy entrepreneurship, no matter how much money we earn! This is what Abu is trying to pass off as truth. What the parable is really saying is that we should use our spiritual talents to grow closer to the Kingdom of God; to daily make ourselves more worthy to partake in the Holy Eucharist! This is what Christ is talking about in the parable!
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Those ‘cliches’ are known as scriptures.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
And not just any scripture, but the words of Christ!
T
Tigg
Guest
Actually I was thinking more about the terms, “filthy rich” and “It’s about our supporting the needy, not the greedy!”
But while we’re on the subject…
Still holds true today.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Yes, and as I outlined above, this is what I think Abu is doing when he infers that God will somehow judge us according to our economic endeavors here on earth (see his interpretation of the Parable of the Talents). (If I’m wrong here, then I humbly apologize to Abu! I find his posts hard to follow sometimes. When I try and pin him down on something, he changes the subject.)
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
It’s sad to see some insist on politicizing that which cannot be politicized. Christ didn’t politicize His message. He told some to ‘sell all they had.’ That’s the same as do everything you can, including supporting government assistance, and recognizing the inequality of our society as the men of the Church point out.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
It’s been argued that we can’t ‘force’ others into giving; yet, we can force others in other morality taught by Christ and His Church. There’s a certain hypocrisy in that train of thought.
Christ did not say to legislate to force others into following any commandment.
This is not ‘socialism.’ This is a democracy, where society can support legislation in line with His teachings. That goes for ALL of His teachings. It seems there are other motives behind arguing to exclude any avenue available to us. As I said, ‘Christ said to sell all you have,’ that is the same as do whatever you can, including supporting legislation to help the least of His.
Christ’s teaching were perfect, our interpretation to fit it to a political view is not.
Christ did not say to legislate to force others into following any commandment.
This is not ‘socialism.’ This is a democracy, where society can support legislation in line with His teachings. That goes for ALL of His teachings. It seems there are other motives behind arguing to exclude any avenue available to us. As I said, ‘Christ said to sell all you have,’ that is the same as do whatever you can, including supporting legislation to help the least of His.
Christ’s teaching were perfect, our interpretation to fit it to a political view is not.
L
Least
Guest
You’re the greedy, how dare you. You have no idea what another’s outlay is with respect to charity, and anyone stupid enough to think YOU should be allowed to decide (be the one to decide) who is being “charitable enough” or to make demands for “more” charity is either stupid or insane (but either, very damnably).
Preach Catholicism, preach Christianity, if you can get people to sign-up (and you’ll have difficulty if you’re talking at them like you need to strip them of their hard-earned resources) than you [may] have Charity. Do not forget, however, that neither Catholicism or Christianity are compulsory and you can #NaCl if you think your little communist rant sounds anything like either.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Why not let your hostility spew all over the place!
L
Least
Guest
Why not you pray daily that I don’t.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Not sinning is not compulsory. Should we stop all efforts to legislate morality as taught by Christ, and His Church, in a democratic society?
While it may be worded differently, what do you take from what the bishops are saying, or the Pope for that matter?
L
Least
Guest
I was responding, not interpreting. I do not speak for them, and do not even claim to speak for HE WHO IS, for whom, apparantly, the Bishop’s, here, are attempting to do.
Rather, I would say (FOR MYSELF)
THE LORD provides all that is provided. If provided in such quantity, that the holder of the benefits of THE LORD wish to share with those who cannot provide for themselves from the bounty of THE LORD (not just not possessing of) in equal quantity. Then it behooves those “with” (who wish to share in eternity with THE LORD, to heed the directives of HIS SON JESUS CHRIST and) to provide for those that “cannot avail themselves of” those resources (to “share”) to the maximum amount achievable.
I do not believe it is for anyone BUT THE LORD to say whether such has been achieved by anyone, and (though I risk a desired eternity) I say it is EQUALLY WRONG (as not sharing) for anyone to devise of themselves compulsory means to do otherwise.
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