Bishops: The rising economic inequality of our society is mounting

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael_Mayo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I was responding, not interpreting. I do not speak for them, and do not even claim to speak for HE WHO IS, for whom, apparantly, the Bishop’s, here, are attempting to do.

Rather, I would say (FOR MYSELF)

THE LORD provides all that is provided. If provided in such quantity, that the holder of the benefits of THE LORD wish to share with those who cannot provide for themselves from the bounty of THE LORD (not just not possessing of) in equal quantity. Then it behooves those “with” (who wish to share in eternity with THE LORD, to heed the directives of HIS SON JESUS CHRIST and) to provide for those that “cannot avail themselves of” those resources (to “share”) to the maximum amount achievable.
I do not believe it is for anyone BUT THE LORD to say whether such has been achieved by anyone, and (though I risk a desired eternity) I say it is EQUALLY WRONG (as not sharing) for anyone to devise of themselves compulsory means to do otherwise.
The Bishops have been chosen, and appointed, by Him. With all authority, He sends them out.

Then we should stop trying to make our abortion efforts compulsory through legislation? Of course not, and in a like manner we can seek, in a democratic society, legislation that will provide for the least of His. That is giving all we have, to give to the poor.

It seems many argue against this, for various reasons. For me, I cannot justify such reasoning, in light of His teachings, and the teachings of His Church.
 
Robert Sock #69
Nowhere is Christ trying to say that we will be judged by our clever earthy entrepreneurship, no matter how much money we earn! This is what Abu is trying to pass off as truth. What the parable is really saying is that we should use our spiritual talents to grow closer to the Kingdom of God; to daily make ourselves more worthy to partake in the Holy Eucharist! This is what Christ is talking about in the parable!
Never has anyone here even tried to say that anyone “will be judged by our clever earthy entrepreneurship, no matter how much money we earn.” It is the epitome of deceit to try to ridicule Fr G Percy’s Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Lexington Books, 2010, through Abu’s very relevant quote from that great work.

Sock still fails to learn that simple truth – that all of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as can be seen from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?”

That Jesus of Nazareth specifically shows us the value of energy, alertness, and perseverance in making a truly significant profit and looks with love on upon human work and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the forms of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking. Laziness and avoiding risks and obstacles are condemned, so that the lessons for the spiritual life and attaining salvation are starkly revealed by these truisms.
 
Sock still fails to learn that simple truth – that all of Christ’s parables teach a spiritual lesson by referencing an earthly lesson for man as can be seen from the CCC #546 on parables: “What use has he made of the talents he has received?”
As for me, I daily try to make myself more worthy of partaking of the Holy Eucharist. Is there any talent that is put to better use than that, Abu?
 
It’s been argued that we can’t ‘force’ others into giving; yet, we can force others in other morality taught by Christ and His Church. There’s a certain hypocrisy in that train of thought.

Christ did not say to legislate to force others into following any commandment.

This is not ‘socialism.’ This is a democracy, where society can support legislation in line with His teachings. That goes for ALL of His teachings. It seems there are other motives behind arguing to exclude any avenue available to us. As I said, ‘Christ said to sell all you have,’ that is the same as do whatever you can, including supporting legislation to help the least of His.

Christ’s teaching were perfect, our interpretation to fit it to a political view is not.
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.
~Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
The Bishops have been chosen, and appointed, by Him. With all authority, He sends them out.

Then we should stop trying to make our abortion efforts compulsory through legislation? Of course not, and in a like manner we can seek, in a democratic society, legislation that will provide for the least of His. That is giving all we have, to give to the poor.

It seems many argue against this, for various reasons. For me, I cannot justify such reasoning, in light of His teachings, and the teachings of His Church.
It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.
~Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Robert Sock #73
this is what I think Abu is doing when he infers that God will somehow judge us according to our economic endeavors here on earth (see his interpretation of the Parable of the Talents).
No one, not the knowledgeable Fr G Percy, not Abu, nor anyone else here has ever, repeat ever, explicitly or implicitly suggested that God will judge our worthiness for salvation based merely on our entrepreneurship.

What Sock does *ad nauseam *is to deny Christ’s praise of the good talents in entrepreneurship and commerce, and the condemnation of evil designs in commerce, to highlight what He requires of people who aspire to enter His Kingdom.

His skewed view cannot see the value in Christ’s choosing to explain the good in entrepreneurship, as Fr Percy so eloquently explains, and the evil in entrepreneurship, which are both dependant on the good or bad intentions and actions of those involved, in order to illustrate the intentions and actions required for salvation. Obviously the meaning of a PARABLE has not yet sunk in.
 
What Sock does ad nauseam is to deny Christ’s praise of the good talents in entrepreneurship and commerce, and the condemnation of evil designs in commerce, to highlight what He requires of people who aspire to enter His Kingdom.
His skewed view cannot see the value in Christ’s choosing to explain the good in entrepreneurship, as Fr Percy so eloquently explains, and the evil in entrepreneurship, which are both dependant on the good or bad intentions and actions of those involved, in order to illustrate the intentions and actions required for salvation. Obviously the meaning of a PARABLE has not yet sunk in.
I agree Abu, JESUS said sell all you have and give it all away, he never said take all you can from those who don’t do likewise.

There’s too much, in this string and far too many in others that make it seem that “proponents” of Catholicism and Christiantiy have been coopted by communist insurgency. While, I believe, that (if called for) martyrdom for Christianity and specifically Catholicism is noble, I don’t believe you should ever allow anyone to use it against you. If someone threatens you due to your beliefs, introduce them to St. Peter quickly, violently, and in a manner that makes other flecks-o’-feces to think twice. If you find yourself before THE LORD, my (perhaps un-Christian belief) is that you should attempt to do so after those that would harm you OR precede those that would harm you by the fewest of possible seconds.
The Bishops have been chosen, and appointed, by Him. With all authority, He sends them out.
And their infallibility on social matters could hide behind this period.
Then we should stop trying to make our abortion efforts compulsory through legislation?
Apples and Oranges and Stupidity Laxative - stick to the argument
Of course not, and in a like manner we can seek, in a democratic society, legislation that will provide for the least of His
. We are a democratic Republic, what you are talking about is Marxism.
That is giving all we have, to give to the poor.
You’re not talking about giving, nor are you talking about what you have. You are talking about taking and you’re saying we should trust you to decide to where to put it. Communism.
It seems many argue against this, for various reasons. For me, I cannot justify such reasoning, in light of His teachings, and the teachings of His Church.
The Church does not teach compulsory means or methods that you are talking about, the Church teaches voluntary Charity, or else, see my comment above regarding a coopted entity that (if ever found to be the case) I will dedicate my remaining life against (while still supporting the teachings of CHRIST).
 
No one, not the knowledgeable Fr G Percy, not Abu, nor anyone else here has ever, repeat ever, explicitly or implicitly suggested that God will judge our worthiness for salvation based merely on our entrepreneurship.

What Sock does *ad nauseam *is to deny Christ’s praise of the good talents in entrepreneurship and commerce, and the condemnation of evil designs in commerce, to highlight what He requires of people who aspire to enter His Kingdom.

His skewed view cannot see the value in Christ’s choosing to explain the good in entrepreneurship, as Fr Percy so eloquently explains, and the evil in entrepreneurship, which are both dependant on the good or bad intentions and actions of those involved, in order to illustrate the intentions and actions required for salvation. Obviously the meaning of a PARABLE has not yet sunk in.
And again, what could possibly be more relevant to the parable than using our earthy talents to daily grow closer to Christ? The literal earthly meaning of the parable is meaningless and pointless. Why bring it up?
 
This is not what Robert is talking about…it’s about what the bishops of our Church are talking about.
 
The quote simply says that socialism is not the remedy, but** it does not say that socialism is to be condemned**.

Where is the Church on greed, and the abnormal desire for power and prestige?

So the Catholic Bishops are in error in saying that the rise in inequality is problematic?
You are wrong…socialism is a totalitarian and atheistic ideologyrejected by the Church.

Pax Christi
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has** likewise refused to accept**, in the** practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor**.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
 
You are wrong…socialism is a totalitarian and atheistic ideology…rejected by the Church.
I concur.

I would also like to say “who cares” . though if it isnt. Socialism, Communism, Marxism are proven by human history to crater. You are not entitled to say “let’s go play endgame, now.” There are a lot of haters of Capitalism, Democracy, and pursuit of wealth, who are tripping over themselves to reap whatever blessings it provides.

His Holiness can complain about the movers and shakers as golden calf worshippers, but he does not concern himself from whence or where his groceries are paid for form in the same way, and I (speaking only for myself) know that I am probably one of those he has so labeled, and yet I struggle regularly to keep the needle for me and mine off the zero peg. I don’t do enough for those around me, certainly, and I will answer for that, certainly, but first I will answer for blocking continuous attacks on the few things working right in this world. “God helps those who help themselves” is NO WHERE in the bible, but it’s EVERYWHERE IN REAL LIFE. Better that the Bishops remind EVERYONE what is expected of those claiming the mantle of Catholicism, and beg for support from everyone else. The Bishops are hoping to avoid nothing, they are staving-off nothing, the problems railed against are never ending, they hopefully can dealt-with here and there and lessened, but to allow work against the problem to be controverted into complaint about those who have actually (if perhaps only momentarily) avoided the problem is counter-productive.

Short answer, you cannot live your life devoid of needs, those needs cannot be quantified (with absolute certainty) as to sufficiency, and more importantly security. STASIS IS UNATTAINABLE. If me, attempting to avoid having ‘none’ by priority (as long as the outlay of my efforts are not directed at preventing you to do likewise), causes you to feel like you have ‘less,’ that then is a problem with/of you. NONE of which, approaches what should actually be taken care of, which (I believe was the main thrust of the Teaching of CHRIST JESUS) is lessening the suffering of people actually ‘in need.’ [loosely paraphrased, TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012]
 
You are wrong…socialism is a totalitarian and atheistic ideologyrejected by the Church.

Pax Christi
If ‘communism’ is condemned by the Church, then why it practiced in monasteries? And what is the official economy of the Vatican? It seems to be far more ‘communistic’ than capitalistic.
 
If ‘communism’ is condemned by the Church, then why it practiced in monasteries? And what is the official economy of the Vatican? It seems to be far more ‘communistic’ than capitalistic.
While “communal” Catholic monastaries are voluntary (in fact most are somewhat difficult to join) not Communist which is compulsory.

The Catholic Church does not “tax” much less demand payment. It is a not-for-profit, but it does ‘invest’ its wealth in aid of others. (You have not demanded a tax (such similar “taxation” of those who do not choose to voluntarily contribute) on the Vatican - and i would work to block you in that endeavor as well).
 
While “communal” Catholic monastaries are voluntary (in fact most are somewhat difficult to join) not Communist which is compulsory.

The Catholic Church does not “tax” much less demand payment. It is a not-for-profit, but it does ‘invest’ its wealth in aid of others. (You have not demanded a tax (such similar “taxation” of those who do not choose to voluntarily contribute) on the Vatican - and i would work to block you in that endeavor as well).
But aren’t capitalistic systems compulsory? I sure feel forced into it against my will!
 
But aren’t capitalistic systems compulsory? I sure feel forced into it against my will!
Only if you are ignoring the alternative, (which is aided by the trappings of Capitalism). You woke up this morning with the real prospect of doing your day to day routine and eventually logging on here. [Despite the Divine Providence of THE LORD] you could have woken up under a tree, after surviving the elements the night before, to the prospect of armed conflict to protect the proceeds of the day’s forage and hunt, a desired mate, and resultant offspring. You did not, mainly because there was excess, in fair amount of basic human need resources. The latter daily format is being played out in several places around the globe (between humans) while I type this. Those places are experiencing this behavior (sometimes) with just the barest strain on basic human-needs resources. [TERMS, J.M. Thomas, R., 2012].

Much, if not MOST of what you have ‘some’ of, is obtained by you with ease because someone had “extra” of it, that they either gave or traded to you for something of somewhat equal nature in fair commerce.

I can’t imagine the complaint if you were to experience otherwise, even if more-voluntary.
 
Robert Sock #91
If ‘communism’ is condemned by the Church, then why it practiced in monasteries?
A similar red herring was refuted in post #36: ‘In Acts 2:44-47, where the faithful lived together and owned everything in common – foolishly called “primitive communism”. These so-called “Apostolics” were condemned by St Thomas and the Late Scholastics, who quote St Augustine.’

Now monasteries are targeted with similar confusion. What the Catholic Late Scholastics developed are the principles of free enterprise from which they were called the first real economists. Free enterprise enabled untold millions to be released from poverty and the first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press, 1969; The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p xii, 55-58).

From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” [cf. op. cit. Stark, p 58].

What is missed here is that the free enterprise system was developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics. There is nothing that can compare with its economic laws – it is the economic approach that has revolutionised the standard of living of millions. Individual morality determines how owners or managers or employees treat each other and the customers, which ethic may derive from a policy set by the firm, and which can be valued by the morality taught by Christ’s Church.

Communism and Socialism have been condemned because they are political systems that deny basic human rights.
 
Communism and Socialism have been condemned because they are political systems that deny basic human rights.
This cannot be stressed enough nor is it inaccurate to say it is a form of slavery. God has given us free will, not to be controlled by government which offers no natural reward for individual initiative or creativity, but to realize our full potential according to His will, utilizing our skills and talents, free from the despair of knowing that there can be no chance to prosper because it will be taken away, and free from the temptation to only accomplish the bare minimum because…… what possible good could come from exerting oneself.
 
A similar red herring was refuted in post #36: ‘In Acts 2:44-47, where the faithful lived together and owned everything in common – foolishly called “primitive communism”. These so-called “Apostolics” were condemned by St Thomas and the Late Scholastics, who quote St Augustine.’

Now monasteries are targeted with similar confusion. What the Catholic Late Scholastics developed are the principles of free enterprise from which they were called the first real economists. Free enterprise enabled untold millions to be released from poverty and the first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press, 1969; The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p xii, 55-58).

From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” [cf. op. cit. Stark, p 58].

What is missed here is that the free enterprise system was developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics. There is nothing that can compare with its economic laws – it is the economic approach that has revolutionised the standard of living of millions. Individual morality determines how owners or managers or employees treat each other and the customers, which ethic may derive from a policy set by the firm, and which can be valued by the morality taught by Christ’s Church.

Communism and Socialism have been condemned because they are political systems that deny basic human rights.
Thanks for your explanation! But the fact still remains that ‘communism’ is alive and well in monasteries and the Vatican.
 
This cannot be stressed enough nor is it inaccurate to say it is a form of slavery. God has given us free will, not to be controlled by government which offers no natural reward for individual initiative or creativity, but to realize our full potential according to His will, utilizing our skills and talents, free from the despair of knowing that there can be no chance to prosper because it will be taken away, and free from the temptation to only accomplish the bare minimum because…… what possible good could come from exerting oneself.
Look at the government during the time of Christ. We have free will, and the right to participate in the decisions our government makes.

I don’t know of any qualifications Christ placed on any of the poor in His time. It seems, today, qualifications are more excuses of reasons we can’t help the poor through government. Christ will deal with the ‘cheaters’, but no where does He instruct it is ours to pass judgement on others.
 
but no where does He instruct it is ours to pass judgement on others.
. . . like the wealthy? who have the greatest propensity and the means for Charity?

Again, NO WHERE did JESUS say to take everything from those who have and give to those who do not. He said GIVE.

And Sock, no, wrong again, but we get that you’re a fan of Communism. Duly noted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top