Bishops: The rising economic inequality of our society is mounting

[Robert_Sock]

And Sock, no, wrong again, but we get that you’re a fan of Communism. Duly noted.

I’m a fan of ‘communism’ as practiced by monasteries and the Vatican! I’m anything but a fan of communism that denies religious freedom. The purpose of my post was just to point out what seems to be a contradiction in the Church from its teaching and practice.

 

[Tigg]

I’m a fan of ‘communism’ as practiced by monasteries and the Vatican! I’m anything but a fan of communism that denies religious freedom. The purpose of my post was just to point out what seems to be a contradiction in the Church from its teaching and practice.

Can you understand the difference between coercion and personal choice? The act of wanting to share one’s personal goods with a community because of a brotherly love and commitment to the gospel is called virtue. Can you say with a straight face that any government is virtuous or if you are a Socialist and demands are made upon you that you support your neighbor that you are freely practicing charity?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Can you understand the difference between coercion and personal choice? The act of wanting to share one’s personal goods with a community because of a brotherly love and commitment to the gospel is called virtue. Can you say with a straight face that any government is virtuous or if you are a Socialist and demands are made upon you that you support your neighbor that you are freely practicing charity?

Again, doesn’t capitalism use coercion in various forms? Perhaps having people vote on socialism vs capitalism after viewing the vast inequality of our current system?

 

[cargau]

Perhaps what is needed is an economic structure that drastically narrows the huge gap of inequality between the filthy rich and the poor souls living in extreme poverty?

How do you propose we deal with economic inequality? It’s not simply about giving and generosity, and it never will be, again, it’s about inequality!

Poverty is not so much one of dollars and cents as it is one of opportunity.

Our government provides all kinds of programs to financially assist the needy, yet we still have the poor. What needs to be fixed are ways to reinforce the notion of family as a solid moral structure and a way to educate the marginalized to take positions in society that allow them to support their families. Asking the government to use the rich,s money to subsidize the poor is a very liberal idea that has never really worked.

I would rather see donations of time and talent to mentor the poor rather than a check.

Remember it is better to teach a man to fish rather than just handing him one.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Poverty is not so much one of dollars and cents as it is one of opportunity.

Our government provides all kinds of programs to financially assist the needy, yet we still have the poor. What needs to be fixed are ways to reinforce the notion of family as a solid moral structure and a way to educate the marginalized to take positions in society that allow them to support their families. Asking the government to use the rich,s money to subsidize the poor is a very liberal idea that has never really worked.

I would rather see donations of time and talent to mentor the poor rather than a check.

Remember it is better to teach a man to fish rather than just handing him one.

I addressed that here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11110092&postcount=1

 

[Lancer]

If ‘communism’ is condemned by the Church, then why it practiced in monasteries? And what is the official economy of the Vatican? It seems to be far more ‘communistic’ than capitalistic.

You forgot my quote from the Catechism…and…

Can you provide the name(s) of Catholic monasteries that practice communism. As for the Vatican, we can check for ourselves and see that the Vatican economic system is not even remotely communistic. But I am curious about the monasteries…never heard that claim before.

Pax Christi

Quote:
2425 The** Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.**” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You forgot my quote from the Catechism…and…

Can you provide the name(s) of Catholic monasteries that practice communism. As for the Vatican, we can check for ourselves and see that the Vatican economic system is not even remotely communistic. But I am curious about the monasteries…never heard that claim before.

Pax Christi

All the monasteries I’ve read about have all their processions owned in common. Income from work is shared by all. The Vatican is a bit different, but the needs of all holy officials are meet by the Vatican.

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock #91
And what is the official economy of the Vatican? It seems to be far more ‘communistic’ than capitalistic.
#100
I’m a fan of ‘communism’ as practiced by monasteries and the Vatican!
The purpose of my post was just to point out what seems to be a contradiction in the Church from its teaching and practice.

Continually misrepresenting the monasteries and the Vatican as “communistic” and extolling “ ‘communism’ as practiced by monasteries and the Vatican”, even after correction, shows an intrinsic disorder of reason and habit.

There is no “contradiction” in the Church’s teaching and practice and it is foolish to claim that it “seems” to be so. The Vatican expects its organizations to follow sound morality and sound economics – that’s it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Continually misrepresenting the monasteries and the Vatican as “communistic” and extolling “ ‘communism’ as practiced by monasteries and the Vatican”, even after correction, shows an intrinsic disorder of reason and habit.

There is no “contradiction” in the Church’s teaching and practice and it is foolish to claim that it “seems” to be so. The Vatican expects its organizations to follow sound morality and sound economics – that’s it.

And mainstream communism cannot be sound economics?

 

[Abu]

Prodigal Son1 #98
Christ will deal with the ‘cheaters’, but no where does He instruct it is ours to pass judgement on others.

Christ and the Sacred Scriptures explicitly command us to judge everything – said, done or written, against truth.
Christ commanded us to:
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

And St Paul, following the Master:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We may not judge motives, intentions, and guilt before God but are commanded to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.
That is precisely why we judge actions, speech, writing against true teaching as to what is good and what is evil, and we know what is good and what is evil only by following the teaching of His Church – not by our opinions, desires, prejudices, feelings, wants – selfism.

We are commanded not to judge the guilt of anyone before God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ and the Sacred Scriptures explicitly command us to judge everything – said, done or written, against truth.
Christ commanded us to:
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

And St Paul, following the Master:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We may not judge motives, intentions, and guilt before God but are commanded to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.
That is precisely why we judge actions, speech, writing against true teaching as to what is good and what is evil, and we know what is good and what is evil only by following the teaching of His Church – not by our opinions, desires, prejudices, feelings, wants – selfism.

We are commanded not to judge the guilt of anyone before God.

Show me where Christ said to feed the poor, but judge them first…

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock #108
And mainstream communism cannot be sound economics?

Sock seems to be trashing Bl John Paul II’s emphatic exposure in his incisive analysis of communism in his 1991 encyclical letter, Centesimus Annus: that its “fundamental error” was “anthropological in nature” – involving a tawdry tarnished idea of the social relationships of human beings.

Also, not seemingly even realising that Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931: “And so, Venerable Brethren and Beloved Sons, having surveyed the present economic system, We have found it laboring under the gravest of evils. We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.” (#128).

Sock, infatuated with the evil Communism, seems to be trying also to trash the revered Fr James Shall who emphasises, to reduce poverty, a free, governmentally “limited society guided by principles of justice and generosity” having “a productive, expansive, and efficient economy…[can]…actually make the poor rich, if given a chance…. but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 178, 185).

 

[Abu]

Prodigal Son1 #110
Show me where Christ said to feed the poor, but judge them first…

Christ has commanded that we “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24). St Paul understood this and in the same vein taught: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.” [2 Thess 3:10.]

So to construct a chimera that anyone is even suggesting that the real needy should not be assisted is dishonest – I haven’t seen that here. What the revered Fr James V Schall, S.J., explains is that the Church condemns socialism outright, and its failure as an economic system is intrinsic to it, as history testifies. The Church has now seen the intrinsic worth of free enterprise.

In Caritas in Veritate, as Fr De Celles points out, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI sees the value of “increasing the share of wealth of the poor by normal market economic activity such as, better jobs, increased profits, etc. [CV 42]. No capitalist I know would object to that, or even to the normal redistribution of wealth that comes through reasonable taxation…… This seems consistent with what he said just six months prior to releasing CV: ‘the illusion that a policy of mere redistribution of existing wealth can definitively resolve the problem must be set aside. …Wealth creation therefore becomes an inescapable duty… if the fight against material poverty is to be effective in the long term.’ Message of the World Day of Peace, January 1, 2009.”

 

[Robert_Sock]

Sock seems to be trashing Bl John Paul II’s emphatic exposure in his incisive analysis of communism in his 1991 encyclical letter, Centesimus Annus: that its “fundamental error” was “anthropological in nature” – involving a tawdry tarnished idea of the social relationships of human beings.

Also, not seemingly even realising that Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931: “And so, Venerable Brethren and Beloved Sons, having surveyed the present economic system, We have found it laboring under the gravest of evils. We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel.” (#128).

Sock, infatuated with the evil Communism, seems to be trying also to trash the revered Fr James Shall who emphasises, to reduce poverty, a free, governmentally “limited society guided by principles of justice and generosity” having “a productive, expansive, and efficient economy…[can]…actually make the poor rich, if given a chance…. but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 178, 185).

You appear to be judging my motives when all I did was ask a question that you, once again, sidetracked in answering. Please answer my question directly.

 

[Abu]

Those who remain mired in their own misconceptions have only themselves to blame for not seeking and learning from those who know.

Fr James V Schall, S.J., has yet more examples of reality on the degraded economics of Communism:
“Communists have always been loath to recognise failure. By any measure of people’s well-being, from health and welfare to the quality of the sausage on the dinner table, market-led economies have outperformed communist ones. Yet communists in power have blundered on regardless.” [Quoting from *Communism at Bay, The Economist, January 14, 1989, p 15. Cf. Does Catholicism Still Exist? p 27].

 

[Robert_Sock]

Those who remain mired in their own misconceptions have only themselves to blame for not seeking and learning from those who know.

Fr James V Schall, S.J., has yet more examples of reality on the degraded economics of Communism:
“Communists have always been loath to recognise failure. By any measure of people’s well-being, from health and welfare to the quality of the sausage on the dinner table, market-led economies have outperformed communist ones. Yet communists in power have blundered on regardless.” [Quoting from *Communism at Bay

, The Economist, January 14, 1989, p 15. Cf. Does Catholicism Still Exist? p 27].

Again, you avoid my question. Why?

 

[hazcompat]

rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2013/09/02/laboring-to-image-god

Peace

 

[Robert_Sock]

Inequality in our world today!

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...Ty4guFC1MbBPq3Igy4yinojSlHY1lKaSdMS9MZQHSZo5g

 

[Robert_Sock]

Those who remain mired in their own misconceptions have only themselves to blame for not seeking and learning from those who know.

Fr James V Schall, S.J., has yet more examples of reality on the degraded economics of Communism:
“Communists have always been loath to recognise failure. By any measure of people’s well-being, from health and welfare to the quality of the sausage on the dinner table, market-led economies have outperformed communist ones. Yet communists in power have blundered on regardless.” [Quoting from *Communism at Bay

, The Economist, January 14, 1989, p 15. Cf. Does Catholicism Still Exist? p 27].[highlight mine]

Is “have always” the same as “will always?” Doesn’t capitalism also fail miserably in not recognizing people’s well-being?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ has commanded that we “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24). St Paul understood this and in the same vein taught: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.” [2 Thess 3:10.]

So to construct a chimera that anyone is even suggesting that the real needy should not be assisted is dishonest – I haven’t seen that here. What the revered Fr James V Schall, S.J., explains is that the Church condemns socialism outright, and its failure as an economic system is intrinsic to it, as history testifies. The Church has now seen the intrinsic worth of free enterprise.

In Caritas in Veritate, as Fr De Celles points out, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI sees the value of “increasing the share of wealth of the poor by normal market economic activity such as, better jobs, increased profits, etc. [CV 42]. No capitalist I know would object to that, or even to the normal redistribution of wealth that comes through reasonable taxation…… This seems consistent with what he said just six months prior to releasing CV: ‘the illusion that a policy of mere redistribution of existing wealth can definitively resolve the problem must be set aside. …Wealth creation therefore becomes an inescapable duty… if the fight against material poverty is to be effective in the long term.’ Message of the World Day of Peace, January 1, 2009.”

And what does Paul say about the disabled, or the unemployed? It seems there’s a spin being applied to the scriptures to justify cutting back on social programs at large, that would affect many. Christ’s commands were plain, and simple; feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the stranger, care for the sick, and visit the imprisoned. Over, and over, He taught to give to the poor, WITHOUT qualifications. He even taught to love those who persecute us, our enemies, but some today seem to think that some who might cheat for help are worse than our ‘enemies.’ It doesn’t add up, in my honest opinion. Christ said if someone ask for your cloak, give them your coat also. If there’s an issue to be judged, it’s His to judge alone.

You continue to produce snippets of Church documents, in what seems an effort to support a political view. Are we to assume that when the Bishops, or Pope even, speaks on the subject of social issues, they don’t understand the scriptures, or documents being touted, as well as we do?