Bishops too involved in US Politics?

[CMatt25]

The poor? Can you define what you mean by that very broad term?

A country doesn’t have to ‘attack us’ to be a threat or to lead to far greater evils.

It’s not my definition that matters. Read the Gospels if you already haven’t for Christ’s definition. Matt 25:35-45 is a good place to start. Ok you’d rather police the entire world and invade every country or ruler we don’t like. Tear it down and then spend our tax dollars to rebuild what we destroyed. Lets go obliterate China, N Korea, Iran. While we’re at it why stop there? Might has well blow up Venezuela and Cuba while we’re at it. Talk about requiring taxes. But the funny thing is we dont do that with every country we don’t like. Peace.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It’s not my definition that matters. Read the Gospels if you already haven’t for Christ’s definition. Matt 25:35-45 is a good place to start. Ok you’d rather police the entire world and invade every country or ruler we don’t like. Tear it down and then spend our tax dollars to rebuild what we destroyed. Lets go obliterate China, N Korea, Iran. While we’re at it why stop there? Might has well blow up Venezuela and Cuba while we’re at it. Talk about requiring taxes. But the funny thing is we dont do that with every country we don’t like. Peace.

I’m asking you for your definition of ‘poverty’ and what we are expected to do to alleviate it. You respond with a scenario of ‘policing the entire world.’

What does that have to do with a definition of 'helping the poor?

Yet since you brought it up: Peace?

Who gave peace to the Arizona rancher murdered by illegal aliens?

 

[CMatt25]

I’m asking you for your definition of ‘poverty’ and what we are expected to do to alleviate it. You respond with a scenario of ‘policing the entire world.’

What does that have to do with a definition of 'helping the poor?

Yet since you brought it up: Peace?

Who gave peace to the Arizona rancher murdered by illegal aliens?

And in my responses on this thread I have indicated the definition and what to do to certainly help if not completely ever aleviating it.

And no. In your same post asking about a definition of poor you brought up countries being a threat and how they don’t have to attack us for us to invade. So I was merely responding to that as well.

Your last question is not even worthy of a response unless you think only someone undocumented commits murder.

I’m unsure true full peace on earth is ever completely attainable in such horror. But who gave peace to the victms of the OK City bombings? To the victims of the murder of the doctor while he was worshiping in his Lutheran church?

 

[SisterSnowflake]

There is no mistake or danger when you follow Christ’s path to righteousness. He spells it out very clearly for us in Matt 25:35-45.

The word poor is mentioned 23 times in the Gospels alone of the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. The word abortion I’m still searching for. Peace.

Again, Jesus came for all people. God does want us to take care of each other…MT 25:40" And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of **these least **brothers of mine, you did for me…’ " Are not the unborn the “least” in society? They truly have NO voice whatsoever.

Remember, Christ was not a political leader, my friend! It is far too easy to mix religion with politics; Christ came before Marx, and, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”.

Here are some passages that relate to your above mentioned concerns.

God bless.

-And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always. MT26:6-11

-He said, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 18:10).

-Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother’s breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother’s womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)

-For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalm 139:13-16)

-Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2)

-“Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward” (Psalm 127:3).

-This sin of child-sacrifice, in fact, is mentioned as one of the major reasons that the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the people taken into exile. “They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight” (2 Kings 17:17-18). Intro to this passage from Priests for Life]

-“Do unto others as you would have them do to you” (Matthew 7:12).

-“Love one another” (John 15:17).

-When it comes to human dignity, Christ erases distinctions. St. Paul declares, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). ). Intro to this passage from Priests for Life]

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

And in my responses on this thread I have indicated the definition and what to do to certainly help if not completely ever aleviating it.

And no. In your same post asking about a definition of poor you brought up countries being a threat and how they don’t have to attack us for us to invade. So I was merely responding to that as well.

Your last question is not even worthy of a response unless you think only someone undocumented commits murder.

I’m unsure true full peace on earth is ever completely attainable in such horror. But who gave peace to the victms of the OK City bombings? To the victims of the murder of the doctor while he was worshiping in his Lutheran church?

Let’s see if we can stick to one topic at a time, since you are unwilling to define ‘helping the poor’ in your own words.

Illegal aliens have already broken one law. Do you support the invasion of our borders?

Why should other countries be permitted the sanctity of their laws and their borders and we are not?

 

[estesbob]

There is no mistake or danger when you follow Christ’s path to righteousness. He spells it out very clearly for us in Matt 25:35-45.

The word poor is mentioned 23 times in the Gospels alone of the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. The word abortion I’m still searching for. Peace.

What good is social jusitce to those who are denied the right to life? ALL rights flow from the right to life.

 

[CMatt25]

Sister, the Church mixes religion with conservative politics all the time nowadays. There’s even a thread on the forums right now about it being a sin if you don’t vote how the Church wants you to vote on one issue.

And I always love when I hear someone bring up the passage about the poor always being among us. The priest I have referred to who said his answer to the poor is simply to get a job, used the same line. Just because the poor will always be with us though is no reason not to wrought good works upon Christ by whatever manner we can and serving Him by doing so.

Did you not read the verses He gave us in Matt 25:35-45 about how if you refuse to take care of the needy, you have refused to help Him?

The verses you presented about being woven in the womb and then coming out of the womb as a born child provide no absolute proof to those who disagree with us as to what occurs at the exact moment of conception. Sure you and I believe the soul enters the body at that exact moment. I don’t like abortion any more than you do. But abortion is one of those issues with a lot of gray areas for people. A more attainable ground in a pluralistic society of many beliefs on this issue, is then perhaps to strive in keeping abortion rare indeed. And making certain we have programs attainable for women who with the resources they need, might indeed choose another option than abortion. But forcing other women back to and subjecting them to the back alleys is not love.

But now serving Christ by serving the poor? Shouldn’t be as much gray if we follow Him. Peace.

 

[estesbob]

Sister, the Church mixes religion with conservative politics all the time nowadays. There’s even a thread on the forums right now about it being a sin if you don’t vote how the Church wants you to vote on one issue.

And I always love when I hear someone bring up the passage about the poor always being among us. The priest I have referred to who said his answer to the poor is simply to get a job, used the same line. Just because the poor will always be with us though is no reason not to wrought good works upon Christ by whatever manner we can and serving Him by doing so.

Did you not read the verses He gave us in Matt 25:35-45 about how if you refuse to take care of the needy, you have refused to help Him?

The verses you presented about being woven in the womb and then coming out of the womb as a born child provide no absolute proof to those who disagree with us as to what occurs at the exact moment of conception. Sure you and I believe the soul enters the body at that exact moment. I don’t like abortion any more than you do. But abortion is one of those issues with a lot of gray areas for people. A more attainable ground in a pluralistic society of many beliefs on this issue, is then perhaps to strive in keeping abortion rare indeed. And making certain we have programs attainable for women who with the resources they need, might indeed choose another option than abortion. But forcing other women back to and subjecting them to the back alleys is not love.

But now serving Christ by serving the poor? Shouldn’t be as much gray if we follow Him. Peace.

Intersting that you thave taken exaclty 10 verses from Scripture, given them you own personal interpeation and told us it trumps the combined wisdom of 2,000 years of Church teaching.

 

[Brendan]

And if “Peter” or we as individuals don’t do enough? Have you become perfect and sold all of your posessions to give even more to the poor? I know I am not perfect. But maybe you are. Matt 19:21 “Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.”
Or if “Peter” has his priorties mixed up?

Peter’s priorities cannot be mixed up, as Christ told Peter “He who hears you, hears Me”, so all I need to worry about is listening to the shepherd the Christ put over me.

And no I did not misunderstand my priest. Why is it CAF Caholics always jump to the conclusion that someone doesn’t understand? He was clear and I haven’t been back there since.

Well, without any context otherwise, what the priest said is inline with the Word of God.

Good for you. I’ve been known to mow a yard or two myself in my time. Thank God we were physically able to do so and there were enough yards not already being mowed. Peace and God bless you.

True, but there almost always something that needs doing.

Pax tecum

 

[CMatt25]

Let’s see if we can stick to one topic at a time, since you are unwilling to define ‘helping the poor’ in your own words.

Illegal aliens have already broken one law. Do you support the invasion of our borders?

Why should other countries be permitted the sanctity of their laws and their borders and we are not?

Sailor, I can’t help if for some reason you can’t grasp how the definition in my own words does not matter. I have Christ’s words.

Because I am not a Native American nor were my ancesters who “invaded” our borders. I am honored for the privilige to live in the greatest melting pot of the world even though I think our conservative politics can be extremely whacky at times. True my ancestors went thru the proper channels. But I do not support deporting undocumented people who are here and tearing apart families when their children are American born citizens. How horrible and unnecessarily painful and sad that would be for their precious children. Peace and God bless you.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sister, the Church mixes religion with conservative politics all the time nowadays. There’s even a thread on the forums right now about it being a sin if you don’t vote how the Church wants you to vote on one issue.

And I always love when I hear someone bring up the passage about the poor always being among us. The priest I have referred to who said his answer to the poor is simply to get a job, used the same line. Just because the poor will always be with us though is no reason not to wrought good works upon Christ by whatever manner we can and serving Him by doing so.

Did you not read the verses He gave us in Matt 25:35-45 about how if you refuse to take care of the needy, you have refused to help Him?

The verses you presented about being woven in the womb and then coming out of the womb as a born child provide no absolute proof to those who disagree with us as to what occurs at the exact moment of conception. Sure you and I believe the soul enters the body at that exact moment. I don’t like abortion any more than you do. But abortion is one of those issues with a lot of gray areas for people. A more attainable ground in a pluralistic society of many beliefs on this issue, is then perhaps to strive in keeping abortion rare indeed. And making certain we have programs attainable for women who with the resources they need, might indeed choose another option than abortion. But forcing other women back to and subjecting them to the back alleys is not love.

But now serving Christ by serving the poor? Shouldn’t be as much gray if we follow Him. Peace.

I’m a little confused about many of the points you seem to be trying to make.

1. Please in your own words, how are we to serve the poor?
2. If you wish to put things in a liberal/conservative perspective, what is exclusively conservative about the right to life?
3. If abortion is a ‘gray area’ with some people, why do you think the Church opposes it so strongly?
4. What do you mean by ‘pluralistic?’
5. Is truth relative?

 

[CMatt25]

Estesbob and Brendan, as you believe. God bless you on your earthly travels with Christ. God bless.

 

[estesbob]

Sailor, I can’t help if for some reason you can’t grasp how the definition in my own words does not matter. I have Christ’s words.

Because I am not a Native American nor were my ancesters who “invaded” our borders. I am honored for the privilige to live in the greatest melting pot of the world even though I think our conservative politics can be extremely whacky at times. True my ancestors went thru the proper channels. But I do not support deporting undocumented people who are here and tearing apart families when their children are American born citizens. How horrible and unnecessarily painful and sad that would be for their precious children. Peace and God bless you.

It is your personal ineterpeation of Christ words and only a very few words of his at that. Fortunanately as Catholics we dont have to fight these constant verse wars-we have the guidance of the Church to follow.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m a little confused about many of the points you seem to be trying to make.

1. Please in your own words, how are we to serve the poor?
2. If you wish to put things in a liberal/conservative perspective, what is exclusively conservative about the right to life?
3. If abortion is a ‘gray area’ with some people, why do you think the Church opposes it so strongly?
4. What do you mean by ‘pluralistic?’
5. Is truth relative?

I’ve responded about Whose definition of the poor I also prescribe to.

I have no idea why our society uses the labels as they do and pro choice is called liberal and anti pro choice is called conservative. It does seem strange since conservatives seem bent on wanting govt out of about everything else. But they sure want govt to intrude in other areas. Maybe you’re a liberal, Sailor, and don’t even know it.

Perhaps pluralistic is not the proper term. But more than one view. In fact many different beliefs and faiths in a democratic society.

No there is one truth. If you are a NT believer Christ tells us He is the truth. He will return in His 2nd Coming. Peace.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve responded about Whose definition of the poor I also prescribe to.

I have no idea why our society uses the labels as they do and pro choice is called liberal and anti pro choice is called conservative. It does seem strange since conservatives seem bent on wanting govt out of about everything else. But they sure want govt to intrude in other areas. Maybe you’re a liberal, Sailor, and don’t even know it.

Perhaps pluralistic is not the proper term. But more than one view. In fact many different beliefs and faiths in a democratic society.

No there is one truth. If you are a NT believer Christ tells us He is the truth. He will return in His 2nd Coming. Peace.

Why should we accept your personal interpretation of Scripture?

 

[Brendan]

Just because the poor will always be with us though is no reason not to wrought good works upon Christ by whatever manner we can and serving Him by doing so.

Did you not read the verses He gave us in Matt 25:35-45 about how if you refuse to take care of the needy, you have refused to help Him?

But who is more needy that a child in it’s mother’s womb. Is that child not covered under Matt 25?

. Sure you and I believe the soul enters the body at that exact moment. I don’t like abortion any more than you do. But abortion is one of those issues with a lot of gray areas for people. A more attainable ground in a pluralistic society of many beliefs on this issue, is then perhaps to strive in keeping abortion rare indeed.

But does the fact that a ‘pluralistic’ society has different beliefs mean that we should not work against them.

For example, if you lived in the first half of the 19th century, would you have worked to outlaw slavery, recognizing, as a Catholic does, that a negro is truely a human being. Or would have have simply said that it is a pluralistic society and been comfortable with slavery being ‘rare’, but still legal?

Moral truth is just that. Christ did not hesitate in preaching moral truth, and neither should we.

And making certain we have programs attainable for women who with the resources they need, might indeed choose another option than abortion. But forcing other women back to and subjecting them to the back alleys is not love.

Now how, exactly, is a woman ‘forced’ into a back alley.

But now serving Christ by serving the poor? Shouldn’t be as much gray if we follow Him. Peace.

That is certainly true, unless you subscribe to a ‘pluralistic’ society. If Christ is to be followed in care for the poor, He is to be followed in all things. Or else we are not following Christ.

You are quite correct that many, many, Catholics do not support the poor as well as they should. A poor person should be able to get all the services they need from the Church, funded by Catholics.

But to teach others to follow the Church in one way, but not to follow it in all, is…well…hypocrasy. And we know how Christ felt about such things.

 

[CMatt25]

Why should we accept your personal interpretation of Scripture?

estebob, no one is saying you have to accept any interpretation other than what the CC interprets about itself if that’s what you choose to believe. You’re free to accept whatever interpretation you choose to believe. Just remember we’re talking about beliefs. May God bless us as we walk our earthly journeys.

 

[CMatt25]

Brendan, you and I may define an embryo as a child but it’s quite a leap to then jump to human slaves who for instance we know have already been born or are viable outside the womb, have a soul. So slavery is indeed one of those Biblically allowed things which I do not take literally. I used to but no longer do I take a 6 day 24 hr evening and morning Creation literally either. Nor do I take women should be quiet in churches literally. There’s a whole bunch of things Catholics and other Christians don’t take literally.

To answer your other question. I truly pray we would be successful in her going a different route. But in the end if a woman is still going to abort but she has no safe legal way, we’re forcing her back to the unsafe back alley.

 

[estesbob]

estebob, no one is saying you have to accept any interpretation other than what the CC interprets about itself if that’s what you choose to believe. You’re free to accept whatever interpretation you choose to believe. Just remember we’re talking about beliefs. May God bless us as we walk our earthly journeys.

But you seem to want us to ignore the Cathecism and rely instead on your personal interpreation of a few Verse from Mathew. Quite franky your comment that Jesus never mentions abortions is a real puzzler to me. It is the kind of argument we hear all the time from homosexual apologists as to why homosexuality is OK.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan, you and I may define an embryo as a child but it’s quite a leap to then jump to human slaves who for instance we know have already been born or are viable outside the womb, have a soul.

Why, there was a pluraity of views on the actual humanity of negros in the 19th century. Quite a number of people considered them to be literally subhuman (below human).

How is that really different from how some veiw a child in the womb today,

We can point to all the biology we want, that it is a living, genetically unique member of the speices homo sapien. But that is not good enough for far too many people, in much that same way that we couild put up all the biologically sound information about negros.

Far too many defined negros as sub human based on subjective criteria, such as skin color. That differes little from the likewise subjective criteria of location relative to one’s mother’s womb.

So slavery is indeed one of those Biblically allowed things which I do not take literally. I used to but no longer do I take a 6 day 24 hr evening and morning Creation literally either. Nor do I take women should be quiet in churches literally. There’s a whole bunch of things Catholics and other Christians don’t take literally.

Biblical slavery was more more akin to what we call today ‘indentured servititude’ or ‘penal labor’. Where the work is owned, but not the person.

We see that in today’s society where prisoners make license plates. That is a form of biblical slavery, but we don’t deny the ‘humanity’ of an inmate. An abortionist denies that very thing from the child.

Nowhere in biblical slavery was the slave described as something other than a human person. That differes from the chattle slavery of Rome and the Antebellum South.

But I digress.

My general point was that ‘pluralistic’ views are not necessarily to be tolerated, especially when they strike at the very definition of the what it means to be a human person.