Bishops too involved in US Politics?

[CMatt25]

Brendan, depends then I guess on which parts of Church documents and Cardinal Ratzinger’s and JP2’s and others statements you want to believe and take to heart then. Perhaps they too are still at work on their journeys as God is still speaking to us. God bless and peace.

 

[WatchingMedia]

One last thing.

Jesus teachings, and the Church make clear distinctions between the responsibility of individuals, versus the responsbility of the government.

 

[estesbob]

:nope: Estesbob how can there be no need for a church if part of forming our consciences requires a church so we can become informed about what the church teaches? And no your faith and beliefs and conscience form your political views. Not the other way around.

But you have made it clear than when push comes to shove you will go with your conscience over the Church. Why not just cut out the middle man and go with your conscience all the time?

 

[WatchingMedia]

When not chosing to use the “tools” the Church has given us for a correct conscience, and not speaking to an Authority if we have a specific concern about a teaching, we commit the sin of Pride - by assuming we know more than everyone else.
We must always seek the truth.

Pride is one of the seven captial sins. Pride is undue self-esteem or self-love, which seeks attention and honor and sets oneself in competition with God.

If an individual is convinced that the Church is in error, since all resources are available in the US., the individual has an obligation - under Charity - to have the error corrected.
This would also be accomplished by speaking to an Authority to get the error corrected.

I personally have found no errors in the teachings of the Church when they are not taken out of context.

 

[CMatt25]

But you have made it clear than when push comes to shove you will go with your conscience over the Church. Why not just cut out the middle man and go with your conscience all the time?

Well you could but as I said you then wouldn’t be able to first inform your conscience of what the “middle man” teaches. You have to do that before you can proceed to ponder the following. Peace.

“He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

“It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

“I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

“If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

“In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

“A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

“We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . . Some situations oblige one to obey God and one’s own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one’s own conscience.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

ascensioncatholic.net/TOPICS/morality/ConscienceAndMoralDecisions.html

 

[CMatt25]

There is NEVER, EVER!!! on the face of this earth, ANY reason to keep abortion legal…
Abortion is murder, and promoting it under any circumstances is a horrible sin.

Sailor, I hope you are never faced with the STATE FORCING a woman you love to give up her life if it is in danger for her to continue her pregnancy.

Are the bishops and the Catholic Church too involved in US politics? On abortion the answer might appear to be yes.

Unlike the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the sick, the Bible doesn’t even mention the word abortion thus giving us no direct guidance on that issue. But it might appear from this, that in the eyes of God, causing death to a fetus is not quite as serious a crime as you and the bishops suggest, not as serious at least as it is to cause death to a person already born.

Exodus 21:22-24 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Sailor, if a woman chooses an abortion after we have tried our best to guide her differently, may I suggest you not give her the death penalty for murder.

Peace and God bless.

 

[CMatt25]

Sailor, if a woman chooses an abortion after we have tried our best to guide her differently, may I suggest you not give her the death penalty for murder.

This poses another huge problem. All of you including the US bishops to stay on topic, love going around crying murder. But no one ever says what the penalty should then be for the woman who has committed “murder”. The chair? Lethal injection? Hanging? A firing squad? Life imprisonment without parole?

The penalties for murder right?

For those who believe in the death penalty, as many Catholics do, I can only assume a woman who committs “murder” to save her own life or aborts in the case of rape, shall then be put to death because her life was in danger or because she was horribly attacked by a rapist.

See the problems when you try to make black and white out of gray?

But on the poor and other social Gospel matters, go for it!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Estebob and that is fine. You are following your conscience then. Peace.

We are to follow God’s conscience first.

Sorry—I did not realize I was attempting debate with a moral relativist. Since God is rationality itself, nothing can come of such futility.

Abortion is murder, but since you cannot seem to understand the hate-sin, love-sinner angle, I will not explain.

 

[WatchingMedia]

In the Lord’s Prayer that Jesus gave us -
“THY will be done”. NOT my will be done.

Go back to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
**Regarding Abortion **-
Page 864, then paragraphs 2271 & 2272.
Bible: Thou shall not kill.
You can not kill one person for the convenience of another.

Go back to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”
Regarding Church involvement in politics -
See paragraphs 2245, and 2246
The means, the only means, she (the Church) , she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel, and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances.
It said ONLY when the welfare of “ALL MEN”. Not the welfare of a small-section of society.
It also states that because of her (the Church’s) commission and competance, is not to be confused in any way with the political community.
Jesus and the Church say it is our responsiblity as individuals to be charitable, etc.,etc.
Also review the Church’s teaching on “Subsidiarity” paragraphs 1883, 1885, 1894, 2209.
The fundamental rights of man and the salvation of souls have nothing to do with false climate control/global warming or immigration or migration in the United States which is posted on the USCCB web site.

 

[CMatt25]

We are to follow God’s conscience first.

Sorry—I did not realize I was attempting debate with a moral relativist. Since God is rationality itself, nothing can come of such futility.

Abortion is murder, but since you cannot seem to understand the hate-sin, love-sinner angle, I will not explain.

The Truth is not relative. As a NT believer, the Truth known as Christ (Jn 14:6) shall come again, Sailor.

But obviously you avoided the answer, Sailor, as to what you would do with a murderer. See, you can’t go around calling something murder, Sailor, if you are not going to penalize the murderer as you penalize murder. Now I’m assuming of course that as much as you love the murderer who guns a child down in cold blood on the street, you’re not willing to say, I love you sinner so you can go free. No Sailor, you must then do the same for all you deem to have murdered. Including a woman you deem to have murdered her child.

It is partly for this reason I have nothing more to say to you on this and why I can not take seriously much of the anti-choice crowd. God bless you all and peace.

 

[WatchingMedia]

This question was answered by Priests for Life on EWTN tonight.

Very briefly -
Legally - Don’t go after the woman, go after the abortionist who will kill again.
Just like a small time drug dealer gets a break if he turns in a bigger dealer.
Happens all the time. Its called plea bargaining.

 

[diggerdomer]

Diggerdomer - are you using the correct version of the Catechism? There were translation errors in the version that was printed in the 1990s in the US.

The correct version and that printed on the USCCB site is: “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II” and first printed in the US in March of 2000.

883 is very clear. It states that the college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor as its head. And it clearly states that the power of the Bishops can not be excercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff. Footnotes at bottom of page state sources.

Regarding your second question:
“The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen. (2245)
It is the part of the Church’s mission to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances. (2246)”
This means the welfare of ALL men, including the Church’s teachings on “subsidiarity” 1883, 1885, 1894, 2209.

Everyone, please check the copyright page in your Catechism of the Catholic Church, Edition". Near the bottom it should say “First Printing, March 2000”.
If you don’t have a correct copy, you can use the USCCB web site. However, it is more difficult to keep everything in context just using a web site since topics are related.

Yes, I am using the correct version. Thanks for asking. Show me where you think that a Bishop has to first get approval from the Pope to teach authoritatively.

Again, as I said, there’s a big difference between getting approval from the Pope and remaining in communion with the Pope.

If you disagree, please give specifics from the Catechism or other Magisterial teaching.

Thanks.

 

[CMatt25]

This question was answered by Priests for Life on EWTN tonight.

Very briefly -
Legally - Don’t go after the woman, go after the abortionist who will kill again.
Just like a small time drug dealer gets a break if he turns in a bigger dealer.
Happens all the time. Its called plea bargaining.

Well ok rarely is it the case I would have to think that someone murdering their child in such a horrific manner in which Catholics espouse the act to be, gets a plea bargain to escape scott free. Calling someone a murderer and then comparing her to a small time drug dealer who might sell some pot is probably not the best comparison. But if that’s how you want to handle it.

That being the case then I am assured now I will never again hear any Catholic call the woman who legally chooses abortion, a murderer. :clapping: And from your response I can assume then the drs would be put to death if abortion is the gravest evil you espouse it to be if you believe in the death penalty for murder. Or at the very least life in prison without parole I will assume. Thank you for your response. God bless you and peace.

 

[estesbob]

Well ok rarely is it the case I would have to think that someone murdering their child in such a horrific manner in which Catholics espouse the act to be, gets a plea bargain to escape scott free. Calling someone a murderer and then comparing her to a small time drug dealer who might sell some pot is probably not the best comparison. But if that’s how you want to handle it.

That being the case then I am assured now I will never again hear any Catholic call the woman who legally chooses abortion, a murderer. :clapping: And from your response I can assume then the drs would be put to death if abortion is the gravest evil you espouse it to be if you believe in the death penalty for murder. Or at the very least life in prison without parole I will assume. Thank you for your response. God bless you and peace.

So he answered you question and you mock him for it?

In the two decades prior to Roe no women were jailed for procuring an abortion. The penaltys were always assessed on the abortionist. i would assume it would be the same way after Roe overturned.

Now back to the topic at hand Do you believe it is proper for a Catholic to support a pro-abortion canidate if they feel he is stronger than his opponent on other Social issues?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sailor, I hope you are never faced with the STATE FORCING a woman you love to give up her life if it is in danger for her to continue her pregnancy.

.

What ‘state’ would that be?

These days people are lucky if the ‘state’ allows them to be born.

 

[CMatt25]

So he answered you question and you mock him for it?

In the two decades prior to Roe no women were jailed for procuring an abortion. The penaltys were always assessed on the abortionist. i would assume it would be the same way after Roe overturned.

Now back to the topic at hand Do you believe it is proper for a Catholic to support a pro-abortion canidate if they feel he is stronger than his opponent on other Social issues?

No I did not mean to mock him. And if it appeared I was, I sincerely apologize to you Watching Media. I was simply pleased to know that at least Catholics who are followers of EWTN will no longer be saying the woman who legally chooses an abortion is committing murder.

From what I can tell by looking into the issue some, many of the punishments going back to the 1800s were for misdemeanors to manslaughter. Punishable by 1 to 10 yrs imprisonment. CT had a punishment of life in prison but that was reduced just 9 yrs later to 10 yrs. The mothers were included at one point in at least NY. So I shall assume then in any case the drs will not be punished as severely as those committing the most henious crimes of murder.

I believe it is proper for a Catholic to support a pro-choice candidate if they feel he or she is stronger than his or her opponent on the other social issues, such as providing help for the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry. On war and peace issues. On the things Jesus actually talked about. As in blessed are the peacemakers and for instance the things Jesus taught for righteousness n Matt 25:35-45. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

What ‘state’ would that be?

These days people are lucky if the ‘state’ allows them to be born.

The United States you desire unless the woman is to commit an illegal act. God bless you Sailor and may our Lord’s peace be with you always.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The United States you desire unless the woman is to commit an illegal act.

 

[estesbob]

I believe it is proper for a Catholic to support a pro-choice candidate if they feel he or she is stronger than his or her opponent on the other social issues, such as providing help for the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry. On war and peace issues. On the things Jesus actually talked about. As in blessed are the peacemakers and for instance the things Jesus taught for righteousness n Matt 25:35-45. Peace.

The Church and i pofoundly disagree with you. What good is peace and social programs to those who are denied the right to life?

 

[CathFaith1]

The Church and i profoundly disagree with you. What good is peace and social programs to those who are denied the right to life?

Exactly. If innocent babies can be denied the right to life, there is no just starting point for any program.