S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Moral relativism has become the new gold standard, even among many ‘Christians.’ 
- Status
C
CMatt25
Guest
Estesbob and CathFaith1, with all due respect I’m more concerned about whether I agree with Christ not whether you or the Catholic Church agrees with me. The good of peace and social programs is these things Christ taught affect human beings already born. In their cases it is not a matter of belief as to what occurs at the moment of conception. Everyone knows they are. Peace and God’s blessings to you both.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Sailor I apologize if I was mistaken and if in fact you do not want the state to outlaw abortion under any circumstances thus forcing women to sacrifice their own lives if their lives or health is in danger. Or otherwise commit an illegal act in a back alley. Peace.
B
Brendan
Guest
But I though you were more concerned with what Christ had to think than what ‘everybody knows’
If you are to be concerned for human beings, are you to use Christ’s definition or societies?
E
estesbob
Guest
So you really dont need the church since you are blessed to be able to discnern what Christ wants EVEN when that is contrary to what the Church teaches and even more amazing you perosonal discernment of what Christ wants just happens to match your politiclal views. WOW!
C
CMatt25
Guest
Again, Christ speaks of the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry and peace. Christ does not mention abortion. Ex 21:22-24 might even suggest the death of a fetus is not quite equal to the death of a mother. Some might also say body plus breath equals soul and at what pt is the fetus viable on it’s own to breath outside the womb. Lots of gray area and no direct mention by Christ of abortion. But Christ’s emphasis left no gray area whatsover on His priorities of serving the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless and working for peace. Instead blessed are the peacemakers and see Matt 25:35-46 for what Christ clearly spelled out was important to serve Him and what happens to those who serve these less fortunate human beings who have already been born and what happens to those who do not.
Peace and God bless you.
C
CMatt25
Guest
No as I’ve told you numerous times my political views happen to match my faith and beliefs in what Christ wants. No one I believe needs the church to discern everything. Some things are clearly spelled out if we only open our hearts and minds and eyes and read. But if you need the church to discern everything for you Estesbob, that’s cool. You can believe as you want. That’s why we call it faith. Peace and God bless.
C
CathFaith1
Guest
Unfortunately it doesn’t. There is no question God condemns abortion.
E
estesbob
Guest
So how do we know when the Church is wrong and we have to strike off on our own to discern what Christ wants?
If you were to go to the website “Dignity” , the group that claims that Church is wrong about homosexual beahvior beng a sin, they advance the exact same agrument you do to jusfify their beliefs. I wonder if next NAMBLA will declare that sex with children is compatible with Church teaching because after all Christ never mentions it.
B
Brendan
Guest
How rich, then are infants in the womb? How in need of medical care are they?Again, Christ speaks of the poor, the sick, the homeless, the hungry and peace. Christ does not mention abortion. Ex 21:22-24 might even suggest the death of a fetus is not quite equal to the death of a mother. Some might also say body plus breath equals soul and at what pt is the fetus viable on it’s own to breath outside the womb. Lots of gray area and no direct mention by Christ of abortion. But Christ’s emphasis left no gray area whatsover on His priorities of serving the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless and working for peace. Instead blessed are the peacemakers and see Matt 25:35-46 for what Christ clearly spelled out was important to serve Him and what happens to those who serve these less fortunate human beings who have already been born and what happens to those who do not.
As far as Christ’s words on helping the poor, one can certainly point on ‘gray areas’. What income level defines ‘being poor’, are ‘pluralistic views’ acceptable to a Christian.
For example, if one states that the poor in the US are not really poor by global standards, and are therefore not in need of assistance or care. Is that not likewise a 'gray area? Did Christ say anything about income levels or what level of access to health care is required?
For you to be logically consistant in your viewpoint, you would then have to accept the pluarity of views on who is actually poor and what is the best way to help them.
Is that correct?
R
Redratfish
Guest
I personally have no problem with Bishops in politics. The term separation of Church and State was actually first used in defense of religious freedoms. Separation of Church and state doesn’t mean that you can vote against a moral issue, just because we have that separation.
Now, In terms of illegal immigration. I have no problem with a Bishop teaching the Catholic faith of helping the poor. If I SEE a homeless man or woman, I will gladly give them money, no questions asked about their heritage. However, FORCING me to help someone break the law, and FORCING me to be for illegal immigration… No, I do not think that is the Bishop’s place. Jesus said give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s. I think this is something we need to give to Ceasar (in terms of the laws), but to God in terms of charity.
Now, In terms of illegal immigration. I have no problem with a Bishop teaching the Catholic faith of helping the poor. If I SEE a homeless man or woman, I will gladly give them money, no questions asked about their heritage. However, FORCING me to help someone break the law, and FORCING me to be for illegal immigration… No, I do not think that is the Bishop’s place. Jesus said give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s. I think this is something we need to give to Ceasar (in terms of the laws), but to God in terms of charity.
E
estesbob
Guest
The Church does not endorse or even recommend any immigration policy. They do say that immigrants are to be treated with comapassion and respect which i think we would all agree is needed.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Again…
I DO want the states to outlaw abortion but fail to see why you refuse to accept that all life (which begins at conception) is sacred.
Why do you continue to promote the SCANDALOUS lie that every birth leads to the death of the mother?
Every hear of adoption?
E
estesbob
Guest
Once one sets themsleves up as the arbiter of what Jesus wants it is easy to find oneself supporting evil.Again…
I DO want the states to outlaw abortion but fail to see why you refuse to accept that all life (which begins at conception) is sacred.
Why do you continue to promote the SCANDALOUS lie that every birth leads to the death of the mother?
Every hear of adoption?
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I am reminded of a certain poster who kept claiming this current regime was the ‘most pr-life’ in the history of the country.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Glad to know you know my inner deepest faith beliefs and heart and soul. Where we differ perhaps is on what and to what degree we force our faith and beliefs onto the rest of society when living in a democracy made up of many different beliefs and not in a theocracy. God bless you and peace.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Use your God given mind and ability to study Scripture as the Bereans to see what was so. (Acts 17:11)
Pray for the guidance of and open your heart and mind to God’s Holy Spirit. His Spirit will lead you Estebob. And if we discern differently, we can ask Him why when He comes again. Peace to you in your walk with Him and God bless you always.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Not exactly. Take those considered poor in the US by defined income poverty levels. Or the hungry, the homeless, those without adequate healthcare for instance. And since it is the richest nation in the world by far, the poor in 3rd world countries would also fall under that definition. It is not difficult to determine who is poor unless you make it to be.
How much healthcare? Caring for the sick obviously means total access to affordable quality healthcare. Otherwise you’re not caring for them adequately.
Peace.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Sailor, never have I said every birth leads to the mother’s death. I’m still unclear what you want. If you want the state to outlaw abortion in all cases then a woman will be forced to sacrifice her life or risk it in those cases where her life or health is in danger. Peace and God bless you always.Again…
I DO want the states to outlaw abortion but fail to see why you refuse to accept that all life (which begins at conception) is sacred.
Why do you continue to promote the SCANDALOUS lie that every birth leads to the death of the mother?
Every hear of adoption?
E
estesbob
Guest
When the spiritt leads you to reject the Church and support the slaughter of the innocents you have to aks yourlsef what spirit you are following.Use your God given mind and ability to study Scripture as the Bereans to see what was so. (Acts 17:11)
- Status