Bitcoins: The time is now

[Abba]

Thank you. I understand bitcoin a bit better now. I visited those sites. Personally I would not be a buyer after looking at the chart for it. It peaked on 11/29/13 and has been falling since. Volume in bitcoin transactions is also dropping and last Sunday was the volume low of the year (2-16-14). This suggests a downward trend.

Good to know, thanks. I’m going to keep an eye on the prices and buy some when it is low and just keep it. At least, I will be in the game and will not have regrets if it goes the way some big timers think it will. There are some venture capitalists investing on making bitcoins international transfer available by using the network already set up internationally for Western Union and other such companies (who use travel agencies, supermarkets etc… for the service).

Ebay started providing bitcoins exchanges this week and link to mt.gox.com as the payment payway. The first “ATM” opened in the United States this week and the people that made it have an order for more than 200 worldwide.

Bitcoins can be exchanged to the billionth or some big number like that… and there will only be 21 million ever made and this timed to end I think it is in 2040.

I just see it as fun money to play with… But, I need to make sure that I learn how not to lose my ‘wallet’. I am still learning.

 

[Deus_tecum]

The price of gold is certainly based partially (maybe largely) on speculation. However, it’s certainly not “pure” speculation. Gold is a physical material with real, tangible uses, whereas bitcoins are, well, purely technological constructs.

I’m not a big fan of investing in gold either, but it’s not quite analogous to investing in bitcoins.

True, for example 54% of gold purchased in 2010 was for jewelry manufacturing, and 10-15 % for industrial use.

 

[Abba]

The price of gold is certainly based partially (maybe largely) on speculation. However, it’s certainly not “pure” speculation. Gold is a physical material with real, tangible uses, whereas bitcoins are, well, purely technological constructs.

I’m not a big fan of investing in gold either, but it’s not quite analogous to investing in bitcoins.

Yes, you are right. Push comes to shove, you still have some precious metal which may be worth one fifth of what you paid for it, but you still have something. But, you can still lose the shirt off you back with both gold and bitcoins because it is speculative.

http://www.dailygainsletter.com/files/2013/12/gold-vs-bitcoin.jpg

 

[phillylawyer]

Yes, you are right. Push comes to shove, you still have some precious metal which may be worth one fifth of what you paid for it, but you still have something. But, you can still lose the shirt off you back with both gold and bitcoins because it is speculative.

zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2013/11/20131128_goldbtc.png

What investment could you make for which there is NO RISK of losing your shirt off your back?

 

[Abba]

Hi philllylawyer,

Hurry (you have limited time) and replace the link of the image with the one on the edited post or just go to edit in your post and delete the picture. Otherwise, the thread is not easy to read with the bigger screen.

If you still have time, in the section that you quote you want to delete the line that looks like this:

http://www/..IMG]

Oh, well, the original image I used was too big.

 

[Abba]

Volume in bitcoin transactions is also dropping and last Sunday was the volume low of the year (2-16-14). This suggests a downward trend.

I think I have found out what is causing the volume in transactions to go down. I first learned of two exchanges coinbase and bitstamp, but then I learned that the top and oldest one is mtgox. Those are the top three. I first saw the prices in the coinbase and bitstamp at about $600 per bitcoin, but, then when I learned mtgox is the oldest and the largest I went to check them out. The price there is a little over $100 and I thought, wow, this is the place to buy some.

I researched what causes the difference in prices in the different exchanges and one of them is that it is more difficult to get money in and out from some than for others due to the international bank transfers - delays are mainly for the USA.

Why is BTC-E Bitcoin Cheaper and Lower in Price Than Other Markets?
Read more at: heavy.com/tech/2013/11/btc-e-bitcoin-cheaper-lower-price-less-cost/

This still did not justify the big difference in price. Well, it happens that the top exchange has experienced a security breach and has lost more than $34 Millions in the past two weeks. They have suspended withdraws of bitcoins. People can still buy and sell within the exchange but they cannot withdraw bitcoins. They can withdraw cash. Apparently some people are trying to sell within the exchange at whatever and are getting their cash out. This is driving the bitcoin price down within mtgox. This could be a good time to get a hold of some bitcoins. The problem is that it takes 32 days to get an account at mtgox and probably by that time the party will be over and the prices will rise again to the level of the other exchanges at least.

Here are some unhappy British who went to Japan and are protesting the suspension of bitcoins withdraw at mtgox:


pcworld.com/article/2100100/mt-gox-bitcoin-price-falls-below-100.html

Mayor Bitcoin Exchange Not Executing Withdraws; Now Owes Clients $38M In Disappeared Money.
falkvinge.net/2014/02/04/major-bitcoin-exchange-not-executing-withdrawals-now-owes-clients-38m-in-disappeared-money/

I could not keep an account in the cloud with much money, it’s too risky. I would cash out once it gained some decent value like this man:
"For some, like the Norwegian citizen Kristoffer Koch, who scored 5,000 in bitcoin for roughly $26.60 USD in 2009, and recently cashed out his holdings for NOK5M ($886,000 USD), the decision not to exempt bitcoin from capital gains taxes is a rough one. "
dailytech.com/Norway+Says+Bitcoins+are+Speculative+Investment+Not+Currency/article33937.htm

All questions answered:
en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#What_do_I_call_the_various_denominations_of_Bitcoins?

 

[Abba]

Alright, I’ll let this thread go to la, la, land. It seems as though I am the only one finding this curious phenomenon interesting.


A Satire of Tulip Mania by Brueghel the Younger (ca. 1640)

Bitcoins may go by way of the Tulips but, then again it may go by way of the emails.That’s the difference between investing and speculation. When we speculate on a commodity or currency we are considering the probabilities of the price going up but when we ‘invest’ it is based on supply and demand and other stable economic considerations. I think it is fine to do both, as long as the speculating is done with calculated and educated risks and you don’t put all you eggs in one basket.

Here is a nice article:
" After all, these terms have been a part of the financial lexicon since Joseph de la Vega wrote Confusion of Confusions in 1688, the oldest book ever written on the stock exchange business. In his famous dialogues, de la Vega observed three classes of men. The princes of business, called “financial lords,” were the wealthy investors. The merchants, the occasional speculators, were the second class. The last class was called the “persistent speculators” or the “gamblers.”" blogs.cfainstitute.org/insideinvesting/2013/02/27/what-is-the-difference-between-investing-and-speculation-2/

What investment could you make for which there is NO RISK of losing your shirt off your back?

LAND. Now, there is land and then there is land as a good investment. It’s true what one of the posters noted; there are taxes and there may be devaluation (which can be avoided if you select properly). Now, where I am investing and where I think it is the best place in the world to invest is where the only way the value of land has gone ever since 1492 - UP.
The Dominican Republic - with the added beauty of no property tax. You can keep your shirt on with good and stable investments (land, fuel, electricity etc… I don’t like pharmaceutical nor the medical industry because I don’t like what they are doing). The only place I know right now where the gain is best with land is the Dominican Republic. I will spice my portfolio with some bitcoins - it’ll be fun.

Good luck,

Abba

 

[dedo]

Hi Dedo,

Thanks for the current Journal article. Hey, that peculiar book I recommended to you years ago because of your interest in crowd behavior, is being semi-quoted on the link you provided. Amazing!

I agree with Buffet’s strategy, as well. Bitcoins is pure speculation and there is nothing really substantial. However, I think as long as a small percentage of a portfolio is used there is nothing wrong with taking an educated risk that may leave good returns. Actually, the same people who suggested Bitcoins to me a few days ago, suggested Gold some years back, right before it started going straight up and fast. I did not have the money to invest in Gold,I would have quadrupled my investment. Gold is the same as Bitcoins - pure speculation.

I’m a tiny, incy-wincy investor, I found a good place to buy, the first bitcoin exchange based in Japan mt.gox.com, and I’ll buy some and let it sit for a while. If the price is right in five years, I’ll sell out or if it is looking pretty, I’ll keep it a while longer. I think with speculative investments is good to get out while the going is good and place the funds in a more reliable and secure place.

It’s been fun looking into this exactly because it is all so radical.

Cheers

Tulip mania…the 1637 event was popularized in 1841 by the book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, written by British journalist Charles Mackay. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Thanks for introducing us to this interesting topic Abba.

It is not for me, but if you get into it, I hope you are one of the lucky ones! You obviously have done a lot of research.

Although, I am conservative with most investments, I do allocate a certain amount of assets to endeavors with high risk / high return. Although, for risky investments I would prefer to stay in the USA / Europe / Canada so I don’t miss obvious warning signs just from not understanding the culture.

Maybe I am just not worldly enough.

Good luck!

 

[roselily]

My favorite crypto currency is Dogecoin, the preferred crypto currency of Shiba Inus worldwide. very currency. much coin. such profit. wow.

Very cool post. Much awesome. such interwebz. wow.

Such words. Much confusing.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/73957a9d7dce4678da90c63927f07a03/tumblr_msxm9dHg4V1shivooo1_500.jpg

such shibe
wow
much doge

I read dogecoin community raises money send service dogs to the children and family in need; I hope dogecoin rise to the moon.
Such Amaze,

Such amaze,

 

[roselily]

Alright, I’ll let this thread go to la, la, land. It seems as though I am the only one finding this curious phenomenon interesting.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_Younger,_Satire_on_Tulip_Mania,_c._1640.jpg
A Satire of Tulip Mania by Brueghel the Younger (ca. 1640)

Bitcoins may go by way of the Tulips but, then again it may go by way of the emails.That’s the difference between investing and speculation. When we speculate on a commodity or currency we are considering the probabilities of the price going up but when we ‘invest’ it is based on supply and demand and other stable economic considerations. I think it is fine to do both, as long as the speculating is done with calculated and educated risks and you don’t put all you eggs in one basket.

Here is a nice article:
" After all, these terms have been a part of the financial lexicon since Joseph de la Vega wrote Confusion of Confusions in 1688, the oldest book ever written on the stock exchange business. In his famous dialogues, de la Vega observed three classes of men. The princes of business, called “financial lords,” were the wealthy investors. The merchants, the occasional speculators, were the second class. The last class was called the “persistent speculators” or the “gamblers.”" blogs.cfainstitute.org/insideinvesting/2013/02/27/what-is-the-difference-between-investing-and-speculation-2/

LAND. Now, there is land and then there is land as a good investment. It’s true what one of the posters noted; there are taxes and there may be devaluation (which can be avoided if you select properly). Now, where I am investing and where I think it is the best place in the world to invest is where the only way the value of land has gone ever since 1492 - UP.
The Dominican Republic - with the added beauty of no property tax. You can keep your shirt on with good and stable investments (land, fuel, electricity etc… I don’t like pharmaceutical nor the medical industry because I don’t like what they are doing). The only place I know right now where the gain is best with land is the Dominican Republic. I will spice my portfolio with some bitcoins - it’ll be fun.

Good luck,

Abba

Abba, let us hope we all can have some profits from that.

And hope you trust only you can trust and did you see my thread about Bitcoin early?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=848130

 

[phillylawyer]

Interesting article from cnn on this topic.

money.cnn.com/2014/02/25/technology/security/mtgox-bitcoin/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

[brinkman2310]

Bitcoins: The time was fifteen years ago.

 

[roselily]

Interesting article from cnn on this topic.

money.cnn.com/2014/02/25/technology/security/mtgox-bitcoin/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Bitcoins: The time was fifteen years ago.

Thanks!

I see no reason that Bitcoin will rise high at current situation; I knew 3 years ago you would mine little Bitcoin on your normal computer.

I have very little Bitcoins, Brothers Sisters, and I must either sell it or hold it— I have hoped to see it rise, —I saw no reason it will rise now.—

 

[biggybig]

No asset backing. No government backing. No Reserve Bank backing. Russia and India going to make them illegal. Volatility that makes the post war Italian Lire look stable. Limited numbers going to be produced makes the elect of the Protestant predestination look a large number.
Its present use limited to drug runners and money launderers, and one or two trendy cafes where you can buy a cup of coffee with bit coins (unless the Mt Gox exchange has another glitch with the value of the “currency” falling by 80% overnight.)
Simple answer from a simple man is no, it is not a good investment. Buy American housing, it is about as safe and at least you own the land.

I disagree with you whole heartedly! The value in Bitcoins is not what government does or does not back it or “number of runs.” The value lies in that it is a much more efficient function of money. Try to think of money as a tool rather than, well just money. It is very secure and very cost effective and hugely eliminates the need for large financial institutions as they currently exist. Think of the Bitcoin like the internet when it first began in the early 90’s. How many people had difficulty comprehending what it was. Bitcoin is very much the same thing. It’s the biggest thing since the internet! And since the folding of Mt Gox, is an opportune time to buy them. I highly recommend buying and holding for 5-10 years. Things could very well move faster than expect, as they already have according to my own calculations. So, that is a conservative estimate. Now, don’t be foolish and “go all in.” But, if you have investments in gold, I would certainly replace them with this. GO BITCOIN!

PS Think of it like this. If you owned Apple stock right now and it went to $1 per share, would you sell or be worried if the company was still going to meet earnings as expected? The answer is NO. Regardless of the stock price, it delivers value and the owner of that asset WILL benefit accordingly.

 

[roselily]

I disagree with you whole heartedly! The value in Bitcoins is not what government does or does not back it or “number of runs.” The value lies in that it is a much more efficient function of money. Try to think of money as a tool rather than, well just money. It is very secure and very cost effective and hugely eliminates the need for large financial institutions as they currently exist. Think of the Bitcoin like the internet when it first began in the early 90’s. How many people had difficulty comprehending what it was. Bitcoin is very much the same thing. It’s the biggest thing since the internet! And since the folding of Mt Gox, is an opportune time to buy them. I highly recommend buying and holding for 5-10 years. Things could very well move faster than expect, as they already have according to my own calculations. So, that is a conservative estimate. Now, don’t be foolish and “go all in.” But, if you have investments in gold, I would certainly replace them with this. GO BITCOIN!

PS Think of it like this. If you owned Apple stock right now and it went to $1 per share, would you sell or be worried if the company was still going to meet earnings as expected? The answer is NO. Regardless of the stock price, it delivers value and the owner of that asset WILL benefit accordingly.

Pleasant,


And no one certain that it is possible to rise or not after time?

 

[Abba]

I think this is a great opportunity. I am embarking before Mom and Pop. I did my homework.

 

[Abba]

I see no reason that Bitcoin will rise high at current situation; I knew 3 years ago you would mine little Bitcoin on your normal computer.

I have very little Bitcoins, Brothers Sisters, and I must either sell it or hold it— I have hoped to see it rise, —I saw no reason it will rise now.—

I am buying. Don’t sell. The economics are there, forget the hype of the media. Insofar as Mt.gox, I am amazed at how long it survived with people who seem to have no business savvy.

Here is the economist Woo on Bitcoin.

businessinsider.com/david-woo-on-bitcoin-2013-12

They are already being used to transfer money around the world. 7.11 in Mexico and other business are already making transaction with bitcoins. It’s a good time to get on that wagon.

Good luck!

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Abba, you’ve clearly fallen for the hype.
Please search Denninger’s Market Ticker website for his articles on “bitcon” and “bitcoin”. Trust me, you’ll have second thoughts.

This isn’t to say digital currencies have no place, but it is to say that Bitcoin has severe issues that don’t augur well for its long term future. Methinks the only reason governments have left it and other digital currencies alive is that they intend to introduce their own government and central bank-backed digital currencies someday and are using the existing independent currencies to expose the good and bad points of implementation.

 

[Abba]

Abba, you’ve clearly fallen for the hype.
Please search Denninger’s Market Ticker website for his articles on “bitcon” and “bitcoin”. Trust me, you’ll have second thoughts.

This isn’t to say digital currencies have no place, but it is to say that Bitcoin has severe issues that don’t augur well for its long term future. Methinks the only reason governments have left it and other digital currencies alive is that they intend to introduce their own government and central bank-backed digital currencies someday and are using the existing independent currencies to expose the good and bad points of implementation.

I am unable to take Denninger serious. He is obviously dramatic to get attention. I think I may watch that drama feature tonight on NBC if I can get it online. Don’t know.

Denninger does not know what he is talking about but has obviously read some stuff on the net. Professionals in different fields will agree, although I will not specifically disclose all the areas in where he is totally wrong. It sounds good, though, so he is just singing the song and hoping it will get him some attention. But, he has not done the math and he does not know what he is talking about.

"The only thing they’re backed by is your stupidity and inability to do math. The Lotto is often called “a tax on those too stupid to perform mathematics.”

The only requirement to “make” one is the expenditure of electricity. Twice, I might add. Once to compute, and again to get the heat out of the room that the computing generates. In some very cold places the second is “free”, of course (or even beneficial.)

All of these are designed to be self-extinguishing. They can be “lost” but a lost “coin” can not be replaced or re-issued. “Mining” becomes progressively more-difficult as well. This is essentially identical to claiming that a burning candle has a future value of more than bupkis.

The best part of it is that the people who “design” them take as many of the “easy” coins as they can get away with before everyone else gets to try, which means they profit simply by offering something that becomes incrementally less-profitable for each new entrant. The best part of this sort of racket is that it’s legal. Then again, it probably shouldn’t be against the law; selling people “pet rocks” wasn’t against the law either, but anyone who thought there was actual value in that box (other than a possible tool for use in a riot) was flat out of their mind. " market-ticker.org/

Now the Economist David Woo, is a serious professional. He calculated that each bitcoin has a value of $1,300 for a total of $15Billions. cnbc.com/id/101250070

Add to that the money that will be entering mostly third world countries in addition as people would have eliminated the third party fees which is in the billions.

It is what it is. However, Denninger does not know what he is talking about. The whole crypto currency thing is at it’s infancy and one of the attractions is eliminating that middle man. Maybe, it can meet government half way.

I don’t think the Japanese government is very happy right now.

 

[roselily]

I think this is a great opportunity. I am embarking before Mom and Pop. I did my homework.

I am buying. Don’t sell. The economics are there, forget the hype of the media. Insofar as Mt.gox, I am amazed at how long it survived with people who seem to have no business savvy.

Here is the economist Woo on Bitcoin.

businessinsider.com/david-woo-on-bitcoin-2013-12

They are already being used to transfer money around the world. 7.11 in Mexico and other business are already making transaction with bitcoins. It’s a good time to get on that wagon.

Good luck!

I suddenly thought I should buy a little early this morning even all the news not good for Bitcoin. I saw Bitcoin and other coins seems rise a little bit no matter Mt. Gox close.
—I have read today a man selling home for $135000 in Dogecoins.
cnn.com/2014/02/26/tech/innovation/dogecoin-cryptocurrency-tech-irpt/