Bitter Hatred for Jihad

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Nota_Bene

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I while back I described how some friends and I are on “liturgical jihad” at my parish. In brief, we have quit worrying or talking about problems, we just fix them.

At this point in time, our pastor knows, but he has not said a word to us about the complaints he is receiving from some – or the cheers he is receiving from others. We operate with the understanding that our pastor could kill the jihad with one phone call to any member.

We are now however met with a bitter hatred from those who don’t want things to change to conform with what the Church actually directs. We have begun producing a one page ditto that we hand-out to anyone questioning what we are doing. The dittos are extremely well researched and foot-noted.

The tables have turned. Now it’s the abusers who are on the defensive. They are the ones that are now frustrated and angry. Unfortunately this seems to be manifesting into hatred and bitterness for those of us on jihad. We are extremely civil and kind to all, and we put time into the dittos in order to answer real questions, but we don’t want to prematurely end the jihad because people are being so negative.

We have talked about it and have agreed the jihad may never end (by our own actions at least) for a few years. Should we keep going? At this point it almost feels like we are on a mission from God…
 
Make it a liturgical crusade not a jihad. The crusades liberated the Holy Lands from the sacriligious hands of infidels. The infidels on the other hand sought to maintain their dominance over the Holy Lands and styled their conquest a jihad.

I assume you want to liberate holy places from sacriligious and irreverant hands and not vice versa.
Better to take up the cross of Christ (crusade) than wage war in the name of Allah (jihad).
 
I agree, maybe they are so defensive because you are using a term from a different religion and then trying to erase the liturgical abuses. It’s a bit contradicting.
 
Nota Bene:
We have begun producing a one page ditto that we hand-out to anyone questioning what we are doing. The dittos are extremely well researched and foot-noted.
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Whoa. I would be offended too if someone not officially working for the parish handed me a “ditto” (wow, haven’t heard that word in 20 years) telling me why they are changing things.

Sounds like your priest needs to step up and do his job. And not allow folks like yourself to run amuck, regardless of your intentions that’s just not right. After all it’s his “mission from God” to run the parish - not yours.

And I would stop using the term jihad, even in jest.
 
Nota Bene, From your opening posts I understand that you and a small number of others have decided that your little group is going to “protect” the entire Church.

You didn’t say that the Pastor has established your group for the purpose of assisting him in Liturgical matters Who do you think you are to over ride the authority of the Pastor? Is your Pastor ill prepared and of a whimpy nature? I didn’t notice that your group has the knowledge or authority to make Liturgical decisions.

I am surprised that you would make public that you and some laymen are tring to take over a Catholic Church and all the members in the form of directing the Pastor how to say Mass. Something is very wrong here.

Finally, from your posts it seems that you are Liberal who found some other Liberals and your objective is CHANGE the Catholic Mass into something that YOU want. Are you selfish? I wouldn’t be surprised if YOU drive some people from your Church. Then thanks to you and your buddies the Offerings drop, would the Pastor like that?
 
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sarcophagus:
I agree, maybe they are so defensive because you are using a term from a different religion and then trying to erase the liturgical abuses. It’s a bit contradicting.
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Oh dear God, are you serious? None of us would ever use the term “jihad” around here. We wouldn’t use the term “crusade” either – that might get the archbishop’s office involved, along with the current news media…
 
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rcn:
Whoa. I would be offended too if someone not officially working for the parish handed me a “ditto” (wow, haven’t heard that word in 20 years) telling me why they are changing things.

Sounds like your priest needs to step up and do his job. And not allow folks like yourself to run amuck, regardless of your intentions that’s just not right. After all it’s his “mission from God” to run the parish - not yours.

And I would stop using the term jihad, even in jest.
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Slow down, cowboy. There is nothing “amuck” about what we are doing, which really boils down to shoveling away a great deal of “muck.”

The pastor is being extremely smart about things. Thing are finally being fixed and he’s effectively staying out of the fray…
 
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Exporter:
Nota Bene, From your opening posts I understand that you and a small number of others have decided that your little group is going to “protect” the entire Church.
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Nope, just my home parish, and it’s working. It’s working well.
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Exporter:
You didn’t say that the Pastor has established your group for the purpose of assisting him in Liturgical matters Who do you think you are to over ride the authority of the Pastor? Is your Pastor ill prepared and of a whimpy nature? I didn’t notice that your group has the knowledge or authority to make Liturgical decisions.
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Please read my paragraph from above:

At this point in time, our pastor knows, but he has not said a word to us about the complaints he is receiving from some – or the cheers he is receiving from others. We operate with the understanding that our pastor could kill the jihad with one phone call to any member.
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Exporter:
I am surprised that you would make public that you and some laymen are tring to take over a Catholic Church and all the members in the form of directing the Pastor how to say Mass. Something is very wrong here.
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Please don’t lie. I said nothing about trying to take over a Catholic Church. I said we are fixing things. Things that do not comply with what the Church directs. See my earlier posting on this subject for more details about what we have changed.
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Exporter:
Finally, from your posts it seems that you are Liberal who found some other Liberals and your objective is CHANGE the Catholic Mass into something that YOU want. Are you selfish? I wouldn’t be surprised if YOU drive some people from your Church. Then thanks to you and your buddies the Offerings drop, would the Pastor like that?
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And you seem quite stultified and couldn’t be more wrong in your opinion. Forget the fact your tip your hand by misusing the label “liberal.” We have changed a great many things that did not comply with the current GIRM and RS – it has zero to do with what we feel is “better.” Unlike many so-called “traditionalists” we actually follow the Church, not our own skewed notions… Again, see my earlier posting on this subject for details before you make another silly posting.
 
Nota Bene:
The pastor is being extremely smart about things. Thing are finally being fixed and he’s effectively staying out of the fray…
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Can’t you see that the “fray” is exactly what his job is? He is playing a game of deception with his parishioners - he knows what you’re doing, but the rest of the parish doesn’t. This creates a divisive environment, for no good reason. Isn’t that exactly the concern you’ve expressed here?

By allowing you to take all the heat, he’s taking advantage of you. You may think that’s a good thing in the name of your imagined “crusade” but this is no way for a priest to treat members of his flock. If there are complaints to the Bishop, he can feign ignorance of the whole matter. It’s deceptive and wrong.

There are better - far better - ways of running a parish. Your priest needs to take control, and responsibility.
 
Why can’t you call this a liturgical crusade?
the muslim jihad will crucify Catholics.
Read the muslims’ book, the quran.
Surah 5
surah 5 33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
35. O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.
36. As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
 
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rcn:
Can’t you see that the “fray” is exactly what his job is? He is playing a game of deception with his parishioners - he knows what you’re doing, but the rest of the parish doesn’t. This creates a divisive environment, for no good reason. Isn’t that exactly the concern you’ve expressed here?

By allowing you to take all the heat, he’s taking advantage of you. You may think that’s a good thing in the name of your imagined “crusade” but this is no way for a priest to treat members of his flock. If there are complaints to the Bishop, he can feign ignorance of the whole matter. It’s deceptive and wrong.

There are better - far better - ways of running a parish. Your priest needs to take control, and responsibility.
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You couldn’t be more wrong…

While pastors may have ultimate control, it can cause them a great deal of pain (and time) to reform a parish. There are people in my parish that are absolutely vicious. If he tried to do what we are doing, he would certainly get it done, but not without a great deal of pain – and time – and letters to the archbishop I’m sure.

For a variety of reasons, my friends and I are able to handle these people with relative ease. So the clean-up gets done and our pastor dosen’t have to get bloodied (or burnt-out) along the way. Keep in mind we are certain the abusers have already approached the pastor about our mission. He either backed us or he ignored them, but either way he has not told us to stop.

Please don’t misunderstand, I’m fairly certain he would step-in if we were doing something that was contrary to the Church’s instructions and he might anyway, who really knows.

My only question was about the abusers. Should we simply ignore their hatred mixed with bitterness?
 
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katolik:
Why can’t you call this a liturgical crusade?
the muslim jihad will crucify Catholics.
Read the muslims’ book, the quran.
Surah 5
surah 5 33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
35. O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.
36. As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
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I’m sorta curious. What value did your above posting add to the discussion?
 
I think the answer to your question might be found by intensive prayer and by speaking with your spiritual director.
 
Nota Bene:
I’m sorta curious. What value did your above posting add to the discussion?
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That the name of this endeavour “jihad” means Islamic holy war which means to kill “enemies of muhammad” . Crusade is much more Catholic and proper. The only thing jihads do to churches is smash the cross and place the quran in its place. Don’t you remember what the jihad did to the Hagia Sophia?
 
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katolik:
That the name of this endeavour “jihad” means Islamic holy war which means to kill “enemies of muhammad” . Crusade is much more Catholic and proper. The only thing jihads do to churches is smash the cross and place the quran in its place. Don’t you remember what the jihad did to the Hagia Sophia?
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Do you honestly anyone would actually use the terms “jihad” or “crusade” in real life to describe what we are doing at my parish?

Yikes…
 
You’ve used the word in at least two threads now. I’m sure your little group uses the word among yourselves.

You’re obviously looking for support here, for agreement with what you’re doing. But you’ve been given several reasons to reconsider your approach, and you’ve dismissed them. If your actions are creating anger and divisiveness in your parish, you really do need to sit back and reflect on that. “It’s OK because we’re right and they’re wrong” is insufficient.
 
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rcn:
You’ve used the word in at least two threads now. I’m sure your little group uses the word among yourselves.

You’re obviously looking for support here, for agreement with what you’re doing. But you’ve been given several reasons to reconsider your approach, and you’ve dismissed them. If your actions are creating anger and divisiveness in your parish, you really do need to sit back and reflect on that. “It’s OK because we’re right and they’re wrong” is insufficient.
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Please don’t ***ume such things, as you are mistaken…
 
Nota Bene:
Do you honestly anyone would actually use the terms “jihad” or “crusade” in real life to describe what we are doing at my parish?

Yikes…
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You asked if anyone would actually use the word “jihad”. My answer is a big “YES”. You have used it! Look at the title of Your Thread. Sure, it was you who introduced the word “Jihad”. To me that indicates an emotional attitude that has NO respect for the members of your own Church. It seems much like a little kid who wants His Own Way.
 
You guys are being idiots. If you’d read the things that they were doing (if I recall, that would be things like putting a crucifix back up on the sanctuary – after finding it in STORAGE… putting out the nativity scene that had been in STORAGE, etc, and basically de-“mucking” their parish), then you would have no problem with this. I’m sure he didn’t mean to stir up such a mess with the use of the word “jihad”… How about just a calling it “fixing the parish.”

-Michael
 
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