Bizarre Occurrence at Mass

[pnewton]

Leaving the taxes issue out of this…

Yeah, I knew that might catch an eyebrow. But that is the choice we face. If we are not going to fund places for the more severely mentally handicapped to live and get assistance, then we must learn to live with them, even at the cost of some dange. As we should all know you can’t get something for nothing.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If I missed this, please direct me to the post that discusses it…but…WHY did the priest give him a host???

I didn’t get a chance to ask Father about it and I’m sure he was shaken by it - the man, as far as I could tell, just kept asking and wouldn’t accept no for an answer. Maybe he said he was Catholic, I don’t know. Next time I see Father I will ask him if I get the opportunity. He is our Nigerian priest and maybe he didn’t know what else to do. There needs to be some kind of way he can urge these people to go and talk to someone in the narthex or something.

 

[CDB1718]

I understand the intention of the advice, but what exactly is she going to say to the police responder?

“We need the police here. There’s a man with a McDonald’s cup and some papers in his hands.” ???

The OP says she was, “afraid he would try to take communion.” I spoke of how to respond if you fear “for the safety of your priest or fellow parishioners.” If you’re concerned about violence, you tell the police dispatcher what your concern is.

I am at 1234 South White Blvd at St. Mary Catholic Church. My name is Jane Doe and my cell number is 555-555-5555. I am a regular parishioner of the church and am inside the main sanctuary, the entrance to which faces Grant Street. Mass is currently being held and a man I don’t recognize is acting in a way which makes me fear for the safety of the people gathered. He appears to be mentally unbalanced and aggressive. He’s not respecting personal boundaries, does not seem familiar with or interested in the service, is touching things inappropriately like the thermostat and he is making eye contact and facial expressions that appear to be confrontational and aggressive. He’s wearing a large black overcoat and several layers of clothes despite the warmth and he’s erratically moving from one seat to another. I am scared to approach him and others are exchanging uneasy glances because they are as well. He might just be harmless, but there’s something about his posture and expressions that make me think he could become violent and I’m concerned for the safety of the priest and parishioners in attendance, especially if he tries to present himself to receive communion in about 10 minutes and is denied.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The OP says she was, “afraid he would try to take communion.” I spoke of how to respond if you fear “for the safety of your priest or fellow parishioners.” If you’re concerned about violence, you tell the police dispatcher what your concern is.

I am at 1234 South White Blvd at St. Mary Catholic Church. My name is Jane Doe and my cell number is 555-555-5555. I am a regular parishioner of the church and am inside the main sanctuary, the entrance to which faces Grant Street. Mass is currently being held and a man I don’t recognize is acting in a way which makes me fear for the safety of the people gathered. He appears to be mentally unbalanced and aggressive. He’s not respecting personal boundaries, does not seem familiar with or interested in the service, is touching things inappropriately like the thermostat and he is making eye contact and facial expressions that appear to be confrontational and aggressive. He’s wearing a large black overcoat and several layers of clothes despite the warmth and he’s erratically moving from one seat to another. I am scared to approach him and others are exchanging uneasy glances because they are as well. He might just be harmless, but there’s something about his posture and expressions that make me think he could become violent and I’m concerned for the safety of the priest and parishioners in attendance, especially if he tries to present himself to receive communion in about 10 minutes and is denied.

That’s a good scenario, but all this guy was doing objectively was sitting back and not participating. He wasn’t moving around, he wasn’t violating anyone’s personal boundaries, and his attire wasn’t much more casual than most of the regular parishioners.

Heck, there were 2 guys in the very front pew on CHRISTMAS that were knocking back Starbucks…

I will definitely ask the ushers about how to handle such things. If they observe and want to call the police, I will defer to them.

 

[CDB1718]

That’s a good scenario, but all this guy was doing objectively was sitting back and not participating. He wasn’t moving around, he wasn’t violating anyone’s personal boundaries, and his attire wasn’t much more casual than most of the regular parishioners.

There is no crime in being mentally ill. It always bothers me when people call the police to handle a mentally ill person, equating them with dangerous. That is how our prisons and jails become warehousing for the socially undesirables that we do not want to spend taxes on to help.

Thank you for expressing the point clearly where I failed to. Awkwardness over mental illness is not the same as fear of violence. I was responding to how to handle fears of violence or destruction.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m sorry you had to experience this. Is this a common occurrence at your parish? If so, maybe someone can speak with the police to figure out the best course of action to handle it. I know the police helped my former parish out with a plan as it used to happen often there. The parish was in the middle of the city and frequented often by mentally ill and homeless people. Many were regulars, so you got to know which ones were harmless and which ones posed a physical danger. Most of the people were harmless and were quiet during mass, so they were never escorted out. Every once in a while, though, you’d have a homeless or mentally ill person (often times they were one in the same) attack someone in the pews, attempt to destroy side altars or try to steal people’s purses, coats, etc. The sacristans and ushers knew which ones to look out for and whenever they were spotted, they would first attempt to escort them out and if that didn’t work, call the police. The police knew about the problems the parish had with this and instructed the church to do this, unless it appears more dangerous than what usually happens.

One time during mass, I remember looking down from the choir loft and saw two policemen on the side aisles going into the confessionals, searching for someone. They were so good about it, I don’t think most of the people in the pews even realised they were there. I found out from one of the sacristans that a regular, who had a past of attacking and destroying things was in there during the mass. He was on his own that day and did not feel safe trying to escort him by himself, so contacted the police. They got him out without most people knowing what was going on. Another time, I remember a mentally ill woman suddenly start screaming and attacked another woman sitting near her. It took three or four men sitting within proximity to drag her out of the pew and out of the church while someone else called the police.

It really is sad how mentally ill people are left out to fend for themselves. I know in that city where my parish was, people lobbied to have all the mental institutions closed as they believed they weren’t being treated well. While this may have been true (I was either not alive yet or just a wee, little thing when this occurred), no one thought about how to accommodate and help these people live in the world once they were set “free”. So, many of them ended up on the streets.

 

[7_Sorrows]

i was at a morning mass once and a transient came in and walked down the aisle. he shook his head at the priest when it came to the Host, and pointed towards the Chalice.
i immediately knew he was not Catholic and was relieved when i saw the priest look at the eucharistic minister holding the Chalice and mouthing the word “NO” - that he was not allowed to drink from the Chalice. he didn’t argue, just kept walking.
the other morning at mass there was a man in the front pew who had ridden up on a bicycle. he was wearing a rosary around his neck. he sat alone, but would lean over and act like he was having a conversation with an invisible friend. no one approached him and he was allowed to receive Holy Communion. i figured that perhaps they had dealt with him before.
so, i am sure parishes have dealt with these types of people more times than we can count.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The OP says she was, “afraid he would try to take communion.” I spoke of how to respond if you fear “for the safety of your priest or fellow parishioners.” If you’re concerned about violence, you tell the police dispatcher what your concern is.

I am at 1234 South White Blvd at St. Mary Catholic Church. My name is Jane Doe and my cell number is 555-555-5555. I am a regular parishioner of the church and am inside the main sanctuary, the entrance to which faces Grant Street. Mass is currently being held and a man I don’t recognize is acting in a way which makes me fear for the safety of the people gathered. He appears to be mentally unbalanced and aggressive. He’s not respecting personal boundaries, does not seem familiar with or interested in the service, is touching things inappropriately like the thermostat and he is making eye contact and facial expressions that appear to be confrontational and aggressive. He’s wearing a large black overcoat and several layers of clothes despite the warmth and he’s erratically moving from one seat to another. I am scared to approach him and others are exchanging uneasy glances because they are as well. He might just be harmless, but there’s something about his posture and expressions that make me think he could become violent and I’m concerned for the safety of the priest and parishioners in attendance, especially if he tries to present himself to receive communion in about 10 minutes and is denied.

…but he wasn’t doing all that according to the original post. The police are going to want to know why you consider this man suspicious, and the problem is that a McDonald’s cup, a handful of papers, and a “gut feeling,” probably aren’t going to cut it for them. Nor do I think you should lie.

So it is tricky. You can indeed have the right impression of someone, but you probably need more than that if you want the police to take you seriously.

 

[BettyBoop416]

The cathedral in my city is in the downtown area and is frequently a hangout for the homeless - some of whom seem to be mentally ill. They often harass parishioners on their way to and from mass for handouts and will occasionally come into the church and cause a disturbance. Consequently, the cathedral has hired two special duty police officers to stand outside before and after week-end masses. Since they are guaranteed a minimum of three hours pay for each job, they typically come inside and sit in the back of the church during mass just to keep an eye on things. Since the arrival of these officers, any disturbances are dealt with swiftly and firmly. Although…and I was not there to witness this, but the story was related to me by a friend who was present…someone recently tried to sneak a host out during communion. A dust-up with one of the ushers ensued and the officers intervened. They ended up throwing the guy out but were not interested in the fact that he had a host with him. When the usher tried again to get it back the officers stopped him and “suggested” that he go back to his seat.

 

[vsedriver]

Yeah, I knew that might catch an eyebrow. But that is the choice we face. If we are not going to fund places for the more severely mentally handicapped to live and get assistance, then we must learn to live with them, even at the cost of some dange. As we should all know you can’t get something for nothing.

you can’t force someone to go into treatment or to take medication until they commit a crime. Getting someone involuntarily committed is very, very hard to do these days. That’s why there are so many mentally ill on the streets. It is heartbreaking to hear families who want to care for mentally ill family members unable to do so because the ill person can simply walk away from a treatment center.

 

[odile53]

Last weekend at the evening vigil Mass one of the psychiatric patients I recognized from the hospital where I work walked in, drunk as a lord and manic to boot, just after Mass started, lurched down the center aisle, and repeatedly yelled, “Is the pope Catholic?”

The sacristan, one of the priests from this religious order, and a big male parishioner deftly caught up with him and escorted him out. He broke away for a moment, did a little tap-dance move, and said, “I’ll be here all week, folks!” as they walked him out of the church.

This church is located downtown, two blocks away from a homeless shelter, with a few transient hotels, a freestanding alcoholism clinic, and a general hospital with a psychiatric department and a very active emergency room all within walking distance. There are several homeless people who do hang out at the church, especially on weekdays, and the priests from this order are aware of their presence. Most of them are harmless and very reverent, or at least quiet. They tend to be somewhat self-policing, in that if they see that one of their number is more disturbed than usual, one or two of them will get the more acute one to settle down or leave. A couple of them have appointed themselves as “official adorers,” and are always there during Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. Except that they look a little more disheveled than the average person who stops in for a few minutes with Jesus, and might have a big plastic bag full of cans that they’re going to take to the recycling center, you’d never know that anything was amiss. They don’t panhandle, and don’t tolerate newcomers who do.

 

[pnewton]

you can’t force someone to go into treatment or to take medication until they commit a crime.

I know. I understand that not everyone knows how to deal with the mentally ill. I guess I should be more tolerant of that. I just get frustrated and wish I could sit down and give a short lesson on why we should not cry criminal trespass or say we are threatened when we deal with these people. For me, they are safer than the average Joe, if you just know how to deal with them and give them a little more leniency than you do others.

 

[Richard320]

It may be because I live in California, but this really doesn’t seem bizarre to me.

It doesn’t happen with any great regularity, but I’ve seen plenty of crazies in Mass. Somewhere within themselves they recognize a longing for God and show up at God’s house. Generally, they’re mildly distracting, but not maliciously; more like they are completely un-self-conscious. Sort of like a six year old in an adult body.

 

[ringil]

So at the Vigil Mass Saturday evening…During the homily my attention was drawn to a young early 20’s man sitting directly in front of the baptismal font…Almost directly in front of the pulpit…He was alone in his row, although there were people in the pew behind him. I noticed the McDonald’s drink cup on the seat next to him, and was somewhat concerned…He did not stand, kneel or do anything other than sit with his legs extended, and smile in a derisive way, and he had some folded papers that he would fiddle with.

The vibe I got while watching him was more hostile than confused, and I got a nervous feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I was afraid he would try to take communion. When I got back to my seat after receiving, I watched in horror as he took the top off his McDonald’s drink cup, picked it up, picked his papers up, and got in line for Father’s distribution of Jesus’ body… I prayed furiously for Father…

When the young man reached Father, there was obviously a problem, as Father refused him the Host…Father held firm for a few minutes and then, to my chagrin, gave the man a Host. The man then went over to the Cup Minister and tried that. That attempt did not work, so he had to walk away.

As he walked back to his seat, he threw the Host into one of the clay jars that are around the baptismal font. Fortunately, one of the ushers saw him and she and one other usher managed to get it out of the jar and one of them consumed it. After they had done this, the man got his things together and walked out into the narthex, where 2 male ushers confronted him. Eventually I saw him ride away from the church on a bicycle.

After Mass, I talked to the Cup minister, since I know him. He said the man was obviously unbalanced in some way, as when he said “The Blood of Christ,” the man said, “Thank you.” Then the Minister knew he could not give this man the Blood.

This Mass is the smallest one at that church, we have trouble getting any ushers, or that sort of thing might be dealt with much more effectively. At the other parish I attend, there are signs on the door that say “No food or drink,” as well as greeters at the doors, who would head off such a person before he ever got to the sanctuary. There is no security at this Mass. And the parish is located in an area that is filled with transient hotels, apartments, etc.

I was actually very frightened that this person was dangerous. His attitude was very negative and I was anticipating worse than just desecration of the Host. At least he didn’t get violent. You never know.

He does sound as if he may have been suffering from mental illness.

Regarding worries of danger- the mentally ill are no more likely to be violent than the general population.

We need to pray for the mentally ill.

 

[ringil]

I know. I understand that not everyone knows how to deal with the mentally ill. I guess I should be more tolerant of that. I just get frustrated and wish I could sit down and give a short lesson on why we should not cry criminal trespass or say we are threatened when we deal with these people. For me, they are safer than the average Joe, if you just know how to deal with them and give them a little more leniency than you do others.

I feel you about feeling frustrated regarding fear of the mentally ill. These folks are our brothers and sisters, friends, and sometimes ourselves.

I am a social worker and have worked with the mentally ill for years and even if the cops are called, if they are good cops, they are going to be gentle with the individual and certainly not arrest them.

Usually they wont move to committ someone unless they are floridy psychotic and really in need.

 

[damooster]

I’m struggling to see how everyone can just write this person off as being mentally ill. It was just a month ago that a lesbian Buddhist was denied Communion and tried to make a political statement about it. Odds are pretty good that copycats are going to try similar things.

Our Church is under attack. I know that ecumenism has clouded the judgement of a lot of people, but the letting down of our guard has to stop.

This man sat through Mass, drinking soda, refusing to go along with the Mass. He then presents himself for Communion, argues defiantly until he receives the body of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and then tosses Him into a common receptacle. That’s not the result of mental illness: that’s a man that rode his bicycle to the parish with a clear purpose. And he should have been dragged into the parking lot and fed some knuckle sandwiches to go along with his soda.

If the Church Militant is not going to stand up for Our Lord, who is?

 

[ringil]

I’m struggling to see how everyone can just write this person off as being mentally ill. It was just a month ago that a lesbian Buddhist was denied Communion and tried to make a political statement about it. Odds are pretty good that copycats are going to try similar things.

Our Church is under attack. I know that ecumenism has clouded the judgement of a lot of people, but the letting down of our guard has to stop.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Why would you jump to the less probable but admittedly, more dramatic interpretation. Don’t make a fight where none exists. Does thinking in this way serve a purpose for you?

 

[englishredrose]

I wonder how Jesus will behave if he came into a Mass…?

I wonder if we would even recongnise him?

Back at midnight mass we had the couple of drunk lads who were using language but not violently so. People were up in arms about them and someone came to get the vicar aiming for the vicar to ask them to leave

instead the vicar just went and sat alongside them, welcomed them to church and chatted to them for a bit and came back to the vestry.

The one church warden after the service was full of playing being bouncer - how sad.

Jesus mixed among people and our priest did show his minsitry’s worth by being able to just chat to them friendly. The people wanted them out. I think Jesus would be much more likely to go and sit with these guys as the priest did and chat to them in the way they could be reached a little rather than turfing them out. I think Jesus would have gone and sat with your guy and chatted to him etc rather than exclude him. Jesus would include him.

Its sad that how regular church goers want anyone who is not quite behaving right etc get instantly panicky and affraid. Affraid of what? Do you not trust in God to help you reach, out reach… You could have gone and sat with him and asked him up for a blessing. He may have refused but at least you would have invited him and included him and may have reduced his anger a little at the compassion you have shown him rather than fear you had off him. If he’s abused communion, yes its sad but God is more than aware of everything going off.

Next time anyone sees anyone different in church, do not treat them as untouchables but please reach out to them and show a little christian compassion. Not be worried by the odd bruise or broken bone you may receive in retaliation. That is minor in the work of the Lord in helping people to return or come to God. See the bruise/broken bone as a reward in doing the Lords’ work. Onward Christian soilders marching as to war…

Be there for our neighbour. Love God and Love your neighbour are we not taught? Then do so. Be there for who ever comes into church with whatever attitude they may bring. A little shy smile could help improve their day no end.

 

[ringil]

I wonder how Jesus will behave if he came into a Mass…?

I wonder if we would even recongnise him?

Back at midnight mass we had the couple of drunk lads who were using language but not violently so. People were up in arms about them and someone came to get the vicar aiming for the vicar to ask them to leave

instead the vicar just went and sat alongside them, welcomed them to church and chatted to them for a bit and came back to the vestry.

The one church warden after the service was full of playing being bouncer - how sad.

Jesus mixed among people and our priest did show his minsitry’s worth by being able to just chat to them friendly. The people wanted them out. I think Jesus would be much more likely to go and sit with these guys as the priest did and chat to them in the way they could be reached a little rather than turfing them out. I think Jesus would have gone and sat with your guy and chatted to him etc rather than exclude him. Jesus would include him.

Its sad that how regular church goers want anyone who is not quite behaving right etc get instantly panicky and affraid. Affraid of what? Do you not trust in God to help you reach, out reach… You could have gone and sat with him and asked him up for a blessing. He may have refused but at least you would have invited him and included him and may have reduced his anger a little at the compassion you have shown him rather than fear you had off him. If he’s abused communion, yes its sad but God is more than aware of everything going off.

Next time anyone sees anyone different in church, do not treat them as untouchables but please reach out to them and show a little christian compassion. Not be worried by the odd bruise or broken bone you may receive in retaliation. That is minor in the work of the Lord in helping people to return or come to God. See the bruise/broken bone as a reward in doing the Lords’ work. Onward Christian soilders marching as to war…

Be there for our neighbour. Love God and Love your neighbour are we not taught? Then do so. Be there for who ever comes into church with whatever attitude they may bring. A little shy smile could help improve their day no end.

I agree with much you have written. We are at Mass not a symphony, not a dinner party.

If EVER there is a time to be more kind, considerate and accommodating it is at Mass, where Christ makes himself present for us.

Most posters here are taking a charitable attitude here.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m struggling to see how everyone can just write this person off as being mentally ill. It was just a month ago that a lesbian Buddhist was denied Communion and tried to make a political statement about it. Odds are pretty good that copycats are going to try similar things.

Our Church is under attack. I know that ecumenism has clouded the judgement of a lot of people, but the letting down of our guard has to stop.

This man sat through Mass, drinking soda, refusing to go along with the Mass. He then presents himself for Communion, argues defiantly until he receives the body of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and then tosses Him into a common receptacle. That’s not the result of mental illness: that’s a man that rode his bicycle to the parish with a clear purpose. And he should have been dragged into the parking lot and fed some knuckle sandwiches to go along with his soda.

If the Church Militant is not going to stand up for Our Lord, who is?

That is what I was worried about - the sense of belligerence that I was getting - I immediately thought, “he is out to cause trouble.” And the fact that he threw Jesus into the jar makes me think that he really was there to be refused as a goal instead of getting a host to desecrate.

But I do not agree that people like this should be “fed a knuckle sandwich.” It would be better if the man could have been stopped at the door and told he could not enter with the cup, and then observed and the ushers could have dealt with him perhaps before he tried to take the Eucharist.

Remember Jesus told us that the gates of Hell would not prevail against our Holy Mother Church. No matter what.