Black holes, infinite density and the Eternal God

[Layp3rs0n]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite. This point of infinite density is called a singularity. But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Let me take a crack at this…
Well a black hole is “infinite in density”, God doesn’t have density, so I think categories
are off here. As for timelessness, black holes have a beginning at some point. Time is
said to STOP at the singularity, no proof per ce but math shows, so it is not “eternally
timeless”, if that makes sense.

So can black holes defeat God? Nope.
Can God defeat black holes? Yep!
Have black holes always been? Nope.
Has God always been? Yep Yep Yep!

I hope that cleared somethings up, maybe someone can expand on that?

 

[Geo17]

I don’t expect much agreement on this, but the idea of Black Holes is all theoretical, and great science fiction. We are so uncertain as to what really exists far out in space that we just don’t know.

So many kids who grew up watching Star Trek are now adults and think most of the things in Star Trek and other sci-fi, are based on science fact, but they’re not. They’re based on theories that can’t be proven nor unproven.

I believe God is timeless because He’s immortal. We only think time is real because we’re mortal. If we believe the Bible, and I do, all things seen and unseen were created by God. He told us that. How He did it, He doesn’t tell us.

Black Holes and God are unrelated except for the fact that if they are real, God created them.

 

[TK421]

The conclusions surrounding black holes are pretty tentative, and in any event, it is believed that subatomic particles do in fact escape from black holes.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

We have a fair understanding of our relationship with God on earth…
But when we look deep into space and see millions of galaxies each with billions of stars,
We become insecure , and wonder what it’s all about… We loose our understanding…
Then when we listen to astro physicists with there theories on the universe and the possibility of multiple and parallel universes we has humble servants of God, get so perplexed about where we stand or even belong… Which brings us back to your question…
If you find the answer please let us all know,

 

[DaveBj]

The conclusions surrounding black holes are pretty tentative, and in any event, it is believed that subatomic particles do in fact escape from black holes.

Yes, according to Stephen Hawking, black holes do “evaporate,” so they have both a beginning and and end. They exist in the space-time continuum. God created the space-time continuum, so He must exist outside it.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite. This point of infinite density is called a singularity. But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

Since by Faith we hold that the universe had an absolute beginning, from nothing, in space and time, there can exist no actual infinity in this universe - no matter what science thinks. And if it be proposed that the universe is eternal, it would still require an eternal creative action on the part of God who exists beyond and outside the universe.

Linus2nd

 

[Ridgerunner]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite. This point of infinite density is called a singularity. But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

it is my understanding that when physicists talk about “singularities”, they mean the mathematical analysis breaks down at a point and can no longer explain things.

So, when they talk about “the point of infinite density being a singularity”, or “time shrinks to nothing in a singularity” all they mean is that they can’t work it out with known mathematical or physical principles.

I think there are a lot of “singularities” in astrophysics, meaning there are a lot of things that seem to work out mathematically up to a point where they don’t.

 

[inocente]

But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

You use the infinitesimally small every time you do differentiation such as working out an instantaneous velocity or acceleration.

God exists in a state of trinity, not singularity D) but imho it’s a mistake to try to turn Him into a scientific hypothesis - “God said to Moses, ‘I am who I am’”.

 

[inocente]

I don’t expect much agreement on this, but the idea of Black Holes is all theoretical, and great science fiction. We are so uncertain as to what really exists far out in space that we just don’t know.

So many kids who grew up watching Star Trek are now adults and think most of the things in Star Trek and other sci-fi, are based on science fact, but they’re not. They’re based on theories that can’t be proven nor unproven.

There is strong evidence of a super-massive black hole at the center of our own galaxy, see here. It doesn’t appear possible to explain the observations otherwise. Similarly other galaxies.

 

[wbradl]

I don,t think Black Holes consist of infinite density matter,if they did how cld they eat up other matter which is less dense?ie stars,dust etc?The"black hole" matter cldn,t swallow finite matter as the finite matter cld not penetrate the infinitely dense matter of the black hole. case closed wbradl

 

[Alindawyl]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite.

Anyone who says that a black hole has infinite density is being rather loose with their language. The normal definition of a black hole is something along the lines of a region of space where gravity is so strong that no matter or energy can leave the region. Such a region of space can be represented mathematically as having at its center a singularity with infinite density, but it’s just a mathematical model. Since nothing can leave, the only actual observations we have are from outside such regions, not inside.

An analogy would be to examine an old locked trunk found in an attic to determine what it contains. We can shake it to hear what sound it makes, weigh it to get an idea of what might be inside, or even xray it. If we get no results whatsoever (no sound is recorded when it’s shaken, no weight is recorded when it’s weighed, no xrays come out the other side when it’s bombarded with them, etc) then all we can do is guess. We can formulate all kinds of hypotheses about what its contents may be, but all we have to go on is what we are able to observe from the outside. Unless we have a way to observe the inside of the trunk, there’s no way to know if any hypothesis we come up with accurately represents the reality of the inside of the trunk.

Stating that a black hole has infinite density is to assume that the theory of general relativity is the same whether or not the gravitational force of a particular region is strong enough to prevent matter or energy from leaving. We simply do not know if that is the case.

 

[Geo17]

We have a fair understanding of our relationship with God on earth…
But when we look deep into space and see millions of galaxies each with billions of stars,
We become insecure , and wonder what it’s all about… We loose our understanding…
Then when we listen to astro physicists with there theories on the universe and the possibility of multiple and parallel universes we has humble servants of God, get so perplexed about where we stand or even belong… Which brings us back to your question…
If you find the answer please let us all know,

Phil, you hit one of the nails here, on the head, with your comment. When we listen to the theories of astrophysicists, and evolutionists, it makes many people uncertain about God. This happened to me also, some 40 years ago. And even though I’m only a layman in science and philosophy, I’ve been searching for an answer some 30 years. God finally gave me answers after years of asking. But how can I explain to others what God revealed to my soul. I’m not sure I can. And even if I told you a few things, you wouldn’t believe it. (most likely)

To start, you need faith in God to believe it, and not ordinary faith, but the kind of faith the Holy Spirit gives. I can’t give that to anyone else, but the Holy Spirit can. So pray to God for the faith that the Holy Spirit can give you. Also read the Bible and believe it even if you think it doesn’t make sense. Consider this. Black holes, alternate realities, and parallel universes don’t make sense, or can’t be proven, but millions of people believe it anyway. That’s faith, but in the wrong things. Apply that kind of belief to the Bible. Assume it’s true, and let God make it real to you. We have more reason to believe God and the Bible are true, than we do to believe in alternate realities.

One reason I like Catholicism better than any Protestant church is because Catholicism freely admits there are mysteries in our faith and we’ll never know the answers while we live on Earth. There are likewise mysteries in the universe we’ll never know the answers to neither. God loves the humble but opposes the proud. A humble and contrite spirit God will never turn away. But to the boastful arrogant man, God will send a him a strong delusion so that having ears, he won’t hear, and having eyes he won’t see, because if he did he may turn and God would have to accept him. God doesn’t do things like that.

Pray to God for answers, and think of Him day and night if you can. If you’re sincere and earnest, He will hear you and answer you.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

Phil, you hit one of the nails here, on the head, with your comment. When we listen to the theories of astrophysicists, and evolutionists, it makes many people uncertain about God. This happened to me also, some 40 years ago. And even though I’m only a layman in science and philosophy, I’ve been searching for an answer some 30 years. God finally gave me answers after years of asking. But how can I explain to others what God revealed to my soul. I’m not sure I can. And even if I told you a few things, you wouldn’t believe it. (most likely)

To start, you need faith in God to believe it, and not ordinary faith, but the kind of faith the Holy Spirit gives. I can’t give that to anyone else, but the Holy Spirit can. So pray to God for the faith that the Holy Spirit can give you. Also read the Bible and believe it even if you think it doesn’t make sense. Consider this. Black holes, alternate realities, and parallel universes don’t make sense, or can’t be proven, but millions of people believe it anyway. That’s faith, but in the wrong things. Apply that kind of belief to the Bible. Assume it’s true, and let God make it real to you. We have more reason to believe God and the Bible are true, than we do to believe in alternate realities.

One reason I like Catholicism better than any Protestant church is because Catholicism freely admits there are mysteries in our faith and we’ll never know the answers while we live on Earth. There are likewise mysteries in the universe we’ll never know the answers to neither. God loves the humble but opposes the proud. A humble and contrite spirit God will never turn away. But to the boastful arrogant man, God will send a him a strong delusion so that having ears, he won’t hear, and having eyes he won’t see, because if he did he may turn and God would have to accept him. God doesn’t do things like that.

Pray to God for answers, and think of Him day and night if you can. If you’re sincere and earnest, He will hear you and answer you.

  Thank you for your comment... Could be interesting to chat face to face about our individual thoughts.. because a forum is widely open to misinterpretation.. and I too am just a normal laymen of science.. I know the moon goes up one way & down the other..

and your comment about what God has shown you but you cant explain in words how to explain your feeling… well thats exactly the boat I’m in… but thats ok…
I enjoy watching science Documentaries of space and anything I know nothing about…
My comment was Based on a Documentary about the Big bang, and was there something before that, or was there no big bang at all but rather a Bounce…
these scientists are highly educated people, there not clowns…
they claim you cant have a reaction without an initial action… they would have a better understanding of a black hole and the universe in general than most of us… plus in general I cant see why God and Science cannot co exist…

 

[Geo17]

Phil,

God and science do coexist. In reality. About 5 years ago I heard a very interesting creation scientist talking on TV, but I only heard part of it. He explained how the Big Bang theory fits better with the Genesis account, than what we used to think, which was a static universe where nothing was moving. Until the 1600’s we had no idea what was beyond the sky. Then Galileo invented the telescope, and everything started to change.

I wish I remembered what the creation scientist said, but it made good sense. I think one reason the atheistic scientific community is trying to change our views on the universe is because creation scientists found a way to make the big Bang jive with Genesis.

You asked what came first? I say God did. He caused the Big Bang. That’s how He did it. So we get the last laugh over the Atheists.

 

[The_Serpent]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite. This point of infinite density is called a singularity. But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

A singularity is the point the original universe started from, it exploded (Big Bang) and made the universe. The normal laws of of science didn’t apply in the singularity, but came into being after the explosion, expansion. Black Holes are supposed to be collapsed stars, yes. God of course could hold either in his hand.

 

[Deus_tecum]

Black holes seem like a good place to chain up Satan and the demons. True science requires empirical proof, but the media is ever eager to promote the latest conjecture which is no more than a question followed by a guess. It’s nice as I get older to just sit back and read some of the stuff, and realize that even if this idea or that idea is correct, then it is how God designed the universe. Science can never disprove God, but the media will always be eager to promote any new guess that seems to accomplish that nefarious task.

 

[wbradl]

geo 1,God did not come first,that wld imply time and we all know God exists outside of time [or in a dimension we can not even comprehend!]. TO the serpent,singularity is a point from which the universe started from…isn’t a point a position in space,there is no matter marking it,more slopiness from the scientific community.,to deus tecum…you can’t hitch the demons up to black holes as the demons are not physical ergo we can’t hitch them!!! w bradl

 

[wbradl]

geo 17,you believe god is timeless because God is immortal No God is timeless because he exists outside of time, a very difficult concept to understand. If you define as God as perfect in alll ways if he is subject to time [existing in past ,present,& future]he ,is more perfected in the present than he was in the past ,as he has acquired something from the past that he did not have in the present. Its like reading a book,you have the knowledge of the book from the past and carried it to the present ,you are more in the present than you were in the past!.God can not become greater ,and existing in time wld have made him greater in the present than in the past therefore God exsists outside of time,outside of past present and future, he is unchanging bill bradl

 

[Linux]

So a black hole is defined as a super massive star that has collapsed on itself to a point in which its density is infinite. This point of infinite density is called a singularity. But isn’t God the only thing that has no limits? How can something be infinity small or dense? It seems to suggest a black holes density is without limits. Presumably, time also shrinks to nothing in a singularity. So it has no time. It is like it exists in eternity. I am confused…really confused. God exists outside of time and is infinite. On that note does He exist in a state of singularity?

You will find the answer to this by first analysing what it means for a thing to be infinitely dense within a scientific context. For instance do they really mean an object that is infinitely small, or rather a point beyond which is immeasurable and beyond space. The first instant appears to be irrational and some what impossible. For example a circle always has a diameter and therefore can never be truly infinitely small because it will always have its diameter or cease to be a circle at all. A truly infinite point is not in space at all since it takes up no space and thus is not a physical object and therefore cannot be an object of science.