Black Hoods

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What are those black hoods called?
 
It’s worn only by Armenian bishops, but I’m not sure what it’s called in Armenian. It is akin to the Syriac masnaphtho.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
I’ve seen them worn by Armenian priests as well. 👍
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I’m not sure that secular clergy are entitled to wear it, but monastic clergy are. The same is true for the Syriac masnaphtho (aka eskeme), and I was remiss in not noting that earlier. :o
 
I believe it is called a vaghar and is worn by vowed celibate clergy, some of whom are vartapets or doctors of the church (whose mark of rank is the staff) and some of whom are elevated to the episcopy.
 
malphono said:
I’m not sure that secular clergy are entitled to wear it, but monastic clergy are. The same is true for the Syriac masnaphtho (aka eskeme), and I was remiss in not noting that earlier. :o
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I don’t know if secular clergy are entitled to wear it either. I do know that the Melkites have a tendency to raise celibate secular priests to the level of archimandrite, thus permitting them to wear the “hat and veil.” 🙂 I wonder if the Armenians don’t sometimes employ the same reasoning.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
I don’t know if secular clergy are entitled to wear it either. I do know that the Melkites have a tendency to raise celibate secular priests to the level of archimandrite, thus permitting them to wear the “hat and veil.” 🙂 I wonder if the Armenians don’t sometimes employ the same reasoning.
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The Armenian equivalent of Archmandrite is Vartaped (sp?). Yes, the candidates must be celibate, and technically I believe they are also the equivalent of titular Abbots. The Syriac Church equivalent is Chor-Episkopos, but its interesting that monks are never ordained Chor-Episkopos.

In pre-conciliar times, the Roman equivalent of Archmandrite was Protonotary Apostolic, (the title still exists but in typical post-conciliar fashion, the dignity itself is watered-down), but there I’m not sure of the monastic connection. I don’t know if there is a Chaldean or Alexandrene equivalent.
 
I wonder why the Armenian Catholic bishops and patriarch don’t wear them. It is the same with the Coptic and Syriac Catholic bishops, they don’t wear the respective turbans.
 
ag_vn said:
I wonder why the Armenian Catholic bishops and patriarch don’t wear them. It is the same with the Coptic and Syriac Catholic bishops, they don’t wear the respective turbans.
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In one word, “Latinization.” Many Eastern Catholics (hierarchs included) think that in order to be truly Catholic they have to look and act as much like their Roman Catholic brethren as possible. 😦
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
In one word, “Latinization.” Many Eastern Catholics (hierarchs included) think that in order to be truly Catholic they have to look and act as much like their Roman Catholic brethren as possible. 😦
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Seems to me that’s a bit unfair. In so far as specific headwear is concerned, it is, AFIK, only the Syro-Malabars who ever adopted the Roman biretta (and, just like the Romans, they probably don’t use it much any more either, but I digress). Syriac CC, e.g., bishops wear something that is rather like a short kamalavkion (without veil), not a biretta. And for all the accusations of latinization, the Maronites have always maintained the tobiyye (for secular clergy and bishops) and the eskeme (for monks and bishops).

Insofar as other dress, yes, in general most have adopted the Roman style, but normally with some specific modifications. The Maronites (in the Patriarchal Territories, at least), e.g., tend to wear a Roman-style cassock but the cut is subtly different, and so is the collar. Simple priests may wear a sash (like the fascia), and all who do tend to wear it well above the waist (even if they’re not overweight!) I believe the custom among the Chaldeans is similar.
 
malphono said:
Seems to me that’s a bit unfair. In so far as specific headwear is concerned, it is, AFIK, only the Syro-Malabars who ever adopted the Roman biretta (and, just like the Romans, they probably don’t use it much any more either, but I digress). Syriac CC, e.g., bishops wear something that is rather like a short kamalavkion (without veil), not a biretta. And for all the accusations of latinization, the Maronites have always maintained the tobiyye (for secular clergy and bishops) and the eskeme (for monks and bishops).

Insofar as other dress, yes, in general most have adopted the Roman style, but normally with some specific modifications. The Maronites (in the Patriarchal Territories, at least), e.g., tend to wear a Roman-style cassock but the cut is subtly different, and so is the collar. Simple priests may wear a sash (like the fascia), and all who do tend to wear it well above the waist (even if they’re not overweight!) I believe the custom among the Chaldeans is similar.
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More Latinizations!! God forbid we look to eastern!!
 
ciero said:
More Latinizations!! God forbid we look to eastern!!
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Aw, common … What does “look to eastern” really mean? Byzantine? 😛

Let’s be fair. The Syriac OC & Armenian OC wear what is very similar to a cassock. I believe the same is true among the Copts. In any case, all Orientals wear the equivalent of the riasa as an outer garment. And monks remain unscathed. 🙂
 
malphono said:
Aw, common … What does “look to eastern” really mean? Byzantine? 😛

Let’s be fair. The Syriac OC & Armenian OC wear what is very similar to a cassock. I believe the same is true among the Copts. In any case, all Orientals wear the equivalent of the riasa as an outer garment. And monks remain unscathed. 🙂
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It means God forbid we dont look Latin!! Why dont the Oriental Catholics dress like their Orthodox counterparts? Because they would look to Eastern! Simple really. It all goes back to the fact that we Easterners accept the fact that we are second class citizens within the catholic communion. Move to the back of the buss.:mad:
 
ciero said:
It means God forbid we dont look Latin!! Why dont the Oriental Catholics dress like their Orthodox counterparts? Because they would look to Eastern! Simple really. It all goes back to the fact that we Easterners accept the fact that we are second class citizens within the catholic communion. Move to the back of the buss.:mad:
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I’m certainly not a fan of latinization, and yes, I would prefer that clerical attire were the same on both sides. But it’s similar enough that I don’t give it all that much thought. Maybe it’s just me, but I really think you’re making more of this particular issue than is really there. Is the accusation, then, that the Syriac OC (or Armenian, or etc) is “latinized” because they don’t wear Byzantine “street” dress? :confused:

Personally I don’t accept being considered “2nd class” by anyone, Roman or otherwise. And I get car sick so, on the rare occasions that I actually ride a bus, I do not sit in the back! 😛
 
malphono said:
I’m certainly not a fan of latinization, and yes, I would prefer that clerical attire were the same on both sides. But it’s similar enough that I don’t give it all that much thought. Maybe it’s just me, but I really think you’re making more of this particular issue than is really there. Is the accusation, then, that the Syriac OC (or Armenian, or etc) is “latinized” because they don’t wear Byzantine “street” dress? :confused:

Personally I don’t accept being considered “2nd class” by anyone, Roman or otherwise. And I get car sick so, on the rare occasions that I actually ride a bus, I do not sit in the back! 😛
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Byzantine street dress is as bad as Latin street dree for the orientals. Why dont they just wera what is rightfully theirs?
🤷
 
ciero said:
Byzantine street dress is as bad as Latin street dree for the orientals. Why dont they just wera what is rightfully theirs?
🤷
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Which is a black cassock in a different cut. Simple matter of practicality, a cassock comes in two broad types:

1: Button front, ala the Roman
2: Wrap front, ala the Byzantine

The rest is pretty much details added on:
How is the neckline closed? Button, hook, pin, or fit? (I’ve seen all the above, tho the pin was on an emergency basis only.) Fit is almost always wrapped front.
is it fitted at the waist or ribs?
Does it have trim? Where, what color, what kind?
If buttoned, how many buttons?
If tied, where?

As a practical matter the various subdivisions of the two broad types can be spectacular in variation… but they are still full length front-opening long sleeved robes of close fit.
 
Aramis said:
Which is a black cassock in a different cut. Simple matter of practicality, a cassock comes in two broad types:

1: Button front, ala the Roman
2: Wrap front, ala the Byzantine

The rest is pretty much details added on:
How is the neckline closed? Button, hook, pin, or fit? (I’ve seen all the above, tho the pin was on an emergency basis only.) Fit is almost always wrapped front.
is it fitted at the waist or ribs?
Does it have trim? Where, what color, what kind?
If buttoned, how many buttons?
If tied, where?

As a practical matter the various subdivisions of the two broad types can be spectacular in variation… but they are still full length front-opening long sleeved robes of close fit.
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Actually the Oriental “cassock” does NOT open up the front but is solid and pulls on over the head. I believe this thread was referring more to headgear though.
 
malphono said:
Seems to me that’s a bit unfair. In so far as specific headwear is concerned, it is, AFIK, only the Syro-Malabars who ever adopted the Roman biretta (and, just like the Romans, they probably don’t use it much any more either, but I digress). Syriac CC, e.g., bishops wear something that is rather like a short kamalavkion (without veil), not a biretta. And for all the accusations of latinization, the Maronites have always maintained the tobiyye (for secular clergy and bishops) and the eskeme (for monks and bishops).
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So far as the headwear of the Syriac Catholic bishops is concerned, I think the kamilavkion is weared over the eskimo only by the Patriarch and the Patriarchs Emeriti. The bishops wear only the eskimo, although rear outside liturgical celebrations. They usually wear the Roman biretta.
The Syriac Catholic Archbishop and the Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan of Aleppo:



I think Chaldeans have also adopted the Roman biretta. As for the Armenian Catholic bishops and Patriarch, they wear a kamilavkion with a veil. I think it is the same with the Coptic Catholic bishops.
The Armenian Catholic and Orthodox Archbishops of Aleppo:

 
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