Blacks and the LDS Priesthood

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Porknpie said:
I just have to ask…why would a Mormon prophet take something out of context? We are discussing a subject that was “doctrine” correct?
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I have no idea friend. Probably for the same reasons some Catholic and Protestant clergy take Bible verses out of historical context to seek to make a point.🤷
 
TexanKnight said:
proof of that, please.
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Friend, no, I have no example at the moment, nor am I vested in trying to find one. If you sincerely do not believe taking verses from the Bible out of context to prove a point never occurs with Catholic or Protestant clergy, you are very fortunate or have a very limited circle of experience or are a very young man.🤷
 
Publisher said:
Friend, no, I have no example at the moment, nor am I vested in trying to find one. If you sincerely do not believe taking verses from the Bible out of context to prove a point never occurs with Catholic or Protestant clergy, you are very fortunate or have a very limited circle of experience or are a very young man.🤷
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Ah…I see. YOU make an claim you can’t substantiate, so you fell the need to insult me.

Is that a Quaker thing?
 
Publisher said:
Friend, no, I have no example at the moment, nor am I vested in trying to find one. If you sincerely do not believe taking verses from the Bible out of context to prove a point never occurs with Catholic or Protestant clergy, you are very fortunate or have a very limited circle of experience or are a very young man.🤷
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So we’re simply supposed to take your word for it? May I ask who died and made you Jesus?
 
Return and stay on the topic of the OP.
And dispense with snide remarks.
 
Again, Joseph and Brigham would not recognize today’s LDS Church. And again, today;s LDS members, though I believe they follow a false prophet, are among the most dedicated, cleanest and nicest folks you can meet.

It would be better if Mormons would say, “we had some awful doctrines, and the Book of Mormon is a piece of good, religious fiction, and our leaders are leaders, not prophets. We love God and hope to be good examples of what God-fearing should be” instead of trying to hide doctrines from alleged prophets and whitewashing those they cannot hide.

The internet was the worst thing that could happen for the LDS Church
 
TexanKnight said:
Prophet John Taylor (1808 - 1887):

“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every should of them should repent… Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark.”
  • Prophet John Taylor, Millennial Star, v. 14, p. 418;
“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God; and that man should be a free agent to act for himself, and that all men might have the opportunity of receiving or rejecting the truth, and be governed by it or not according to their wishes and abide the result; and that those who would be able to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds. It is the same eternal programme. God knew it and Adam knew it.”
  • Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 304;
Apostle Orson Hyde (1805-1878):

“We feel it to be our duty to define our position in relation to the subject of slavery. There are several men in the valley of the Salt Lake from the Southern States, who have their slaves with them.”
  • Apostle Orson Hyde, Millennial Star, 1851, p. 63
Apostle George F. Richards ( 1861 - 1950 ):

“The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom *.”
  • Apostle George F. Richards, Conference Report, April 1939, p. 58;
Prophet David O. McKay (1873 - 1970):

“I know of no scriptural basis for denying the Priesthood to Negroes other than one verse in the Book of Abraham (1:26); however, I believe, as you suggest that the real reason dates back to our pre-existent life.”
  • Prophet David O. McKay, as quoted in Mormonism and the Negro, Part 2, p. 19;
Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith (1876 - 1972):

“Not only was Cain called to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures… they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101, 1935;
“It is true that the negro race is barred from holding the Priesthood, and this has always been the case. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught this doctrine, and it was made known to him, although we know of no such statement in any revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, or the Bible.”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Improvement Era, v. 27, p. 565;
“It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness… It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them.”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Juvenile Instructor, v. 26, p. 635;
“There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66;
“There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we come here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61;
“It is not the authorities of the Church who have placed a restriction on him [the black man] regarding the holding of the Priesthood. It was not the Prophet Joseph Smith… It was the Lord!”
  • Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in John J. Stewart, The Glory of Mormonism, 1963, p. 154*
The mark was not put on Cain as a curse or for punishment:

Genesis 4:15-16

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
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TexanKnight or others,
What do you feel Paul meant when he said:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. (Eph 6:5-8 NIV)
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All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves. These are the things you are to teach and insist on. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing.(1 Tim 6:1-3 NIV)
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How do you reconcile this with anti-slavery?
 
Janderich said:
TexanKnight or others,
What do you feel Paul meant when he said:

How do you reconcile this with anti-slavery?
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Don’t have to. This is an attempt to try to compare something from 2000 years ago with the awful things said by LDS leaders over 1800 years later. Perhaps you should address the awful things they said
 
TexanKnight said:
Don’t have to. This is an attempt to try to compare something from 2000 years ago with the awful things said by LDS leaders over 1800 years later. Perhaps you should address the awful things they said
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I thought this was a forum for discussion. If not to discuss, then what was your purpose in posting these statements? Are you willing to cry foul with LDS authorities but unwilling to address the early apostles statements whom the Catholics esteem so dear? If you will not discuss Paul then hold your tongue against Joseph Smith on the matter, because the first statement you posted from him is directly tied to these scriptures. In fact he discusses them later on in the same discourse. TexanKnight, don’t you see you can’t have it both ways?
 
Janderich said:
TexanKnight or others,
What do you feel Paul meant when he said:

How do you reconcile this with anti-slavery?
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Seriously? Dude.

Those passages aren’t telling slaves that they are inferior or cursed, they’re just instructions on how those that are slaves are to treat their brothers and sisters in Christ. There really isn’t any comparison between the two.

Don’t be silly now :-p
 
Just because St. Paul acknowledged that slavery was a fact of life in the 1st century Roman Empire and gave pastoral counsel to those who lived under it does not mean that Paul (or God) commanded or condoned the practice.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
SpeSalvi said:
Seriously? Dude.

Those passages aren’t telling slaves that they are inferior or cursed, they’re just instructions on how those that are slaves are to treat their brothers and sisters in Christ. There really isn’t any comparison between the two.

Don’t be silly now :-p
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So when discussing the scriptures on the matter of slavery I am being “silly” but when discussing statements from LDS leaders you are not? I do not consider the matter silly in either case, but absolutely serious.
PaulDupre said:
Just because St. Paul acknowledged that slavery was a fact of life in the 1st century Roman Empire and gave pastoral counsel to those who lived under it does not mean that Paul (or God) commanded or condoned the practice.
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He did more than just acknowledge it. Paul in both scriptures is specifically discussing how Christian masters and Christian slaves should act towards one another. For some reason instead of saying to the slave owner, “free your slaves” he counsels the owner to treat slaves fairly. Instead of telling the slave to rebel he councils them to serve their master as they would Christ. Why would Paul give such instruction? Was this teaching from the Lord? If so, did the Lord change from then to now?
 
PaulDupre said:
Just because St. Paul acknowledged that slavery was a fact of life in the 1st century Roman Empire and gave pastoral counsel to those who lived under it does not mean that Paul (or God) commanded or condoned the practice.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Agreed. I hope the Mormon church agrees with this too.

Does anyone know what Joseph Smith said of slavery?
 
Janderich said:
I thought this was a forum for discussion. If not to discuss, then what was your purpose in posting these statements? Are you willing to cry foul with LDS authorities but unwilling to address the early apostles statements whom the Catholics esteem so dear? If you will not discuss Paul then hold your tongue against Joseph Smith on the matter, because the first statement you posted from him is directly tied to these scriptures. In fact he discusses them later on in the same discourse. TexanKnight, don’t you see you can’t have it both ways?
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This thread was to discuss blacks and the lds church. I understand that, when faced with the lds horrendous past, you’re finest instinct is to jump to 2000 years ago in a foreign country and culture and try to make silly comparisons, but I will not play that game, How about discussing what your leaders said?
 
From the History of the Church(vol 2) Bolding added

" In my opinion, you will do well to search the Book of Covenants, in which you
will see the belief of the Church, concerning masters and servants. All
men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with
slaves, contrary to the mind and will of their masters."

and

“We have taken no part for or against slavery; but are opposed to the abolitionists, and
consider that men have a right to hold slaves or not, according to law.”

Seems like JS condoned slavery…hmmmm
 
Porknpie said:
Does anyone know what Joseph Smith said of slavery?
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Well, if you figure he wrote the Doctrine & Covenants, D&C 101:79 showed up in 1833: “Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.”

It happened 2 years after Papal recognition was granted to the four free black women who established the community of black Catholic nuns in Baltimore. And 6 years before Pope Gregory XVI’s wonderful statement “in the Lord all believers in Christ, of whatsoever condition, that no one hereafter may dare unjustly to molest Indians, Negroes, or other men of this sort; …or to reduce them to slavery…”

Meanwhile, the Triennial Convention of the American Baptist Foreign Mission Board had members who “protested the abolitionist agitation and argued that, while slavery was a calamity and a great evil, it was not a sin according to the Bible.” in 1841.

Such interesting times. It seems like the LDS church and the Catholic church were on the same side of the issue before the civil war, while at least the Baptists (especially southern Baptists) needed a while longer. And of course, the US needed a pretty horrible civil war to settle matters finally.

In 1842, Joseph wrote in his personal journal that the slaves owned by Mormons should be brought “into a free country and set …free– Educate them and give them equal rights.” It was also the year he wrote “I have just been perusing your correspondence with Doctor Dyer, on the subject of American slavery, and the students of the Quincy Mission Institute, and it makes my blood boil within me to reflect upon the injustice, cruelty, and oppression of the rulers of the people. When will these things cease to be, and the Constitution and the laws again bear rule? I fear for my beloved country mob violence, injustice and cruelty appear to be the darling attributes of Missouri, and no man taketh it to heart! O tempora! O mores! What think you should be done?”

In 1844 when Joseph ran for president, he campaigned on an anti-slavery platform.
“[We] hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal;…but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours.”
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Does anyone have a link to the Catholic history in the matter of slavery and rights for blacks? I found the wikipedia article easily enough, but would welcome any source you folks would have me read.

I have slavery in my ancestry - but it was more of the Scottish highlanders captured and pressed into fighting for the English king variety.
 
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