Blacks and the LDS Priesthood

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Janderich, would you please explain how Mormon teaching and practice regarding the Mormon priesthood ban for men of African decent is associated to slavery in the first century Roman Empire?

Thanks. 🙂
 
First Black Pope.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...6lafvPlcD-kMwPj57garJAK6Gh8oXWjRL5euywlqjP-bg

Pope, St. Victor, 186-198.

When was the first mormon prophet? or priesthood holder?
Here is a one or two pager on black history in the Catholic church: site.adw.org/black-history-month.

We’ve had 3 African popes and numerous saints. Article says that there are 200M black Catholics world-wide. Popes were Saints Victor I, Melchiades and Gelasius I. Learn something every day…
 
Janderich, would you please explain how Mormon teaching and practice regarding the Mormon priesthood ban for men of African decent is associated to slavery in the first century Roman Empire?

Thanks. 🙂
Rebecca,
I am discussing the first two quotes TexanKnight provided to begin the discussion. I started at the beginning and looked into them. After reviewing them I decided to discuss the issue he raised. Both are related to slavery. If TexanKnight did not want to start a discussion on this issue then he should not have provided the below two quotes:
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805 – 1844):
“I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall… the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible… And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it [slavery] remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude.”
  • Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 2, p. 438;
“Thirteenth – ‘Are the Mormons abolitionists?’ No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.”
  • Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v.3, p. 29;
By placing them at the first of his statements he seeks to add credence to his argument. Do you, or does he now wish to remove them?
 
St. Ignatius taught c.177AD regarding the universality of the Church, that it is the oneness (mirroring the One, Triune, God) “that creates unity through the people’s of the Church, through the different cultures, through the different people; it is a common content like the truth, despite the diversity of languages and cultures.” (“Church Fathers”, Pope Benedict XVI)
 
Rebecca,
I am discussing the first two quotes TexanKnight provided to begin the discussion. I started at the beginning and looked into them. After reviewing them I decided to discuss the issue he raised. Both are related to slavery. If TexanKnight did not want to start a discussion on this issue then he should not have provided the below two quotes:

By placing them at the first of his statements he seeks to add credence to his argument. Do you, or does he now wish to remove them?
Yes, but I would expect to see an argument from LDS, that norms defined by culture, such as slavery, are not related to the Mormon priesthood ban. Rather than an argument in defense of slavery.

So while I see the connection that TK is making, I don’t necessarily think that YOU would accept the connection. Based on your replies, it seems you do, so my question is framed in that. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear.

What is the connection of slavery to the Mormon priesthood ban, to you? I already know what it is for TK.
 
First Black Pope. - Pope, St. Victor, 186-198.

When was the first mormon prophet? or priesthood holder?
Hey, I have absolutely no interest in knocking Catholicism or it’s rich history. I believe the world owes y’all a debt of gratitude for everything done across the centuries to finally put an end to state sponsored ‘legal’ slavery.

But to answer your question, the first black priesthood holder was Elijah Abel, given the priesthood and ordained to the office of Elder by Joseph Smith in 1836 - six years after my church was organized. And I’m sure you already know there have been no black LDS prophets. Looking at skin colors and names in my church’s org chart , I see Joseph W. Sitati is a black member of the 1st quorum of the seventy.

I know it’s more complicated with Catholicism, but I tried to find sort of an ‘org chart’ starting with Pope Benedict XVI on down - I couldn’t find one. The closest I came was catholic-hierarchy.org/ - so I’m not sure how the skin color on Catholicism’s current leadership compares with my church. Any ideas?

Also, I wonder twopekinguys, what do you think about TexanKnight’s statement “you’re finest instinct is to jump to 2000 years ago in a foreign country and culture and try to make silly comparisons”. Someone asked a question about Joseph’s stand on blacks, I post a few quotes, and then you brought up St. Victor from 186 A.D. Do you agree or disagree with TexanKnight?
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Porknpie:
Here is a one or two pager on black history in the Catholic church: site.adw.org/black-history-month.
Great link - thank you! I didn’t realize the church went to Africa that quickly.
 
Great link - thank you! I didn’t realize the church went to Africa that quickly.
Alexandria was not only a great Roman city, it was a center of early Christianity, along with Rome and Antioch. St. Jerome, who translated the Bible into Latin in the fifth century, and had studied Christian history in depth up to his time, wrote that the St. Mark the Evangelist established Christianity in Rome c. 43AD. St. Mark also started a catechetical school in Alexandria for theologians and priests…the first seminary.

North Africa was Christianized early, however, by the 14th century the region had become predominantly Islam, with small Christian communities remaining.
 
Yes, but I would expect to see an argument from LDS, that norms defined by culture, such as slavery, are not related to the Mormon priesthood ban. Rather than an argument in defense of slavery.

So while I see the connection that TK is making, I don’t necessarily think that YOU would accept the connection. Based on your replies, it seems you do, so my question is framed in that. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear.

What is the connection of slavery to the Mormon priesthood ban, to you? I already know what it is for TK.
Rebecca I have not sought to defend slavery. Instead I have focused on bringing understanding to the first two quotes from Joseph Smith. In order to understand Joseph’s stance, or perhaps others, one must understand the Apostle Paul’s statements on the matter. Until someone can honestly address these statements then there is little discussion that can occur about the priesthood. Previously I asked:
He did more than just acknowledge it. Paul in both scriptures is specifically discussing how Christian masters and Christian slaves should act towards one another. For some reason instead of saying to the slave owner, “free your slaves” he counsels the owner to treat slaves fairly. Instead of telling the slave to rebel he councils them to serve their master as they would Christ. Why would Paul give such instruction? Was this teaching from the Lord? If so, did the Lord change from then to now?
When this question is answered perhaps there can be a discussion on priesthood.
 
This is not a bait and switch. The questions I have asked are pertinent. I believe by understanding Paul’s stance on slavery one may begin to understand LDS thoughts on priesthood.
 
(name removed by moderator),
Can you answer the specific questions given again in post #60? Also, I need to leave for a while, but I will be back later to respond.
 
Rebecca I have not sought to defend slavery. Instead I have focused on bringing understanding to the first two quotes from Joseph Smith. In order to understand Joseph’s stance, or perhaps others, one must understand the Apostle Paul’s statements on the matter. Until someone can honestly address these statements then there is little discussion that can occur about the priesthood. Previously I asked:
When this question is answered perhaps there can be a discussion on priesthood.
You are reading into the text wasn’t isn’t there.

Paul existed in a context of culture, a culture that had a slave class, which incidentally is not comparable to American slavery, in that, it wasn’t based on race. It was based on who had been conquered in war, the Romans making slaves of those they conquered. Roman slaves were also not considered to be less than human, as Africans slave were in the Americas.

Paul is not addressing slavery in these passages, he is addressing people, teaching them how to live a Christian life in the culture and circumstance in which they exist. He says nothing, absolutely nothing, about the ethical or moral rightness/wrongness of slavery.

At any rate, that is not what I’m asking. I’m asking, what slavery has to do with the Mormon priesthood ban. You still haven’t explained the connection.
 
I’m back, but see my questions will remain unanswered. All I have is another cryptic Star Trek allusion and a discussion from Rebecca about slavery and the color of someones skin. How could the discussion possibly move on to the Priesthood if the method of how the church was anciently governed is not even acknowledged.
 
I’m back, but see my questions will remain unanswered. All I have is another cryptic Star Trek allusion and a discussion from Rebecca about slavery and the color of someones skin. How could the discussion possibly move on to the Priesthood if the method of how the church was anciently governed is not even acknowledged.
Even in the ancient Church, slaves were treated as’full’ members of the Church. In fact, there were people that wanted to exclude the gentiles from joining. Here’s what Peter had to say about that:
8 And God, who can read everyone’s heart, showed his approval of them by giving the Holy Spirit to them ** just as he had to us.
9 God made no distinction between them and us, since he purified their hearts by faith.**
10 Why do you put God to the test now by imposing on the disciples the very burden that neither our ancestors nor we ourselves were strong enough to support?
11 But we believe that ** we are saved in the same way as they are: through the grace of the Lord Jesus.’**

God’s church is for everyone. No facet of it should everbe withheld from a faithful follower of Christ based on their ancestry or the color of their skin. Peter ended that elitist attitude early on in the Church and it is deplorable that an entire Church would be so out of sync with Peter himself.
 
Hey, I have absolutely no interest in knocking Catholicism or it’s rich history. I believe the world owes y’all a debt of gratitude for everything done across the centuries to finally put an end to state sponsored ‘legal’ slavery.

But to answer your question, the first black priesthood holder was Elijah Abel, given the priesthood and ordained to the office of Elder by Joseph Smith in 1836 - six years after my church was organized. And I’m sure you already know there have been no black LDS prophets. Looking at skin colors and names in my church’s org chart , I see Joseph W. Sitati is a black member of the 1st quorum of the seventy.

I know it’s more complicated with Catholicism, but I tried to find sort of an ‘org chart’ starting with Pope Benedict XVI on down - I couldn’t find one. The closest I came was catholic-hierarchy.org/ - so I’m not sure how the skin color on Catholicism’s current leadership compares with my church. Any ideas?

Also, I wonder twopekinguys, what do you think about TexanKnight’s statement “you’re finest instinct is to jump to 2000 years ago in a foreign country and culture and try to make silly comparisons”. Someone asked a question about Joseph’s stand on blacks, I post a few quotes, and then you brought up St. Victor from 186 A.D. Do you agree or disagree with TexanKnight?

Great link - thank you! I didn’t realize the church went to Africa that quickly.
He can fight his own battles on that. 😃

I will agree with you to a point on JS. (not completely)

He did ordain Elder Abel, but then I believe it was revoked by Brigham Young, and never to be reinstated.

Also, I am still looking for the exact reference,(I knew I should have bookmarked it) I believe it is in the history of the church. Smith did advocate using public money to purchase the slaves away from their owners, BUT, his intent was to then force them to go to Texas, tofight in whatever war was going on at the time.
 
I see janderich is still dodging and deflecting while trying to compare 70 Bc in the middle east with 1800s in the united states and refusing to address the awful comments by his leaders
 
I’m back, but see my questions will remain unanswered. All I have is another cryptic Star Trek allusion and a discussion from Rebecca about slavery and the color of someones skin. How could the discussion possibly move on to the Priesthood if the method of how the church was anciently governed is not even acknowledged.
I never said anything about the color of a person’s skin. Not once. It’s OK to say “I don’t know”, rather than playing a game of “I know something you don’t know. I’m not going to talk to you until you guess what I know.” No one here is expecting you to be infallible.

Here’s St. Paul again, teaching that all the baptized are one in Jesus Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 3:28[/BIBLEDRB]

Which again, is not a treatise on slavery.
 
I never said anything about the color of a person’s skin. Not once. It’s OK to say “I don’t know”, rather than playing a game of “I know something you don’t know. I’m not going to talk to you until you guess what I know.” No one here is expecting you to be infallible.
Sorry to use the word “skin color” instead of race. You know these discussions don’t need to go this way. I would be happy to share my thoughts if there was an attitude of mutual respect. I asked a few questions about Paul’s words, which I saw as needing explanation from the Catholic point of view, but truly did not know how a believing Catholic would respond. After all this back and forth posturing without one person answering them I of course searched myself. I think I now understand better some of the difficulty they pose and why my questions have been avoided.

If someone does respond I’ll not be harsh. I was hoping people would be able to see why we believe the way we do by working through these scriptures.
 
Sorry to use the word “skin color” instead of race. You know these discussions don’t need to go this way.
Race isn’t my point! Unity of Christ’s Church, is my point.
I would be happy to share my thoughts if there was an attitude of mutual respect.
I have no intention of disrespect. Asking a question isn’t disrespectful. Perhaps your suspicions of their intentions lead you to believe so. I have no agenda in asking what I asked. It is an honest question. Dancing around it seems disrespectful, on your part.
I asked a few questions about Paul’s words, which I saw as needing explanation from the Catholic point of view, but truly did not know how a believing Catholic would respond. After all this back and forth posturing without one person answering them I of course searched myself. I think I now understand better some of the difficulty they pose and why my questions have been avoided.
Your questions have been answered, with the Catholic response, SEVERAL times.
If someone does respond I’ll not be harsh. I was hoping people would be able to see why we believe the way we do by working through these scriptures.
Then respond to how we answered, not to how you think we should answer.
 
Sorry to use the word “skin color” instead of race. You know these discussions don’t need to go this way. I would be happy to share my thoughts if there was an attitude of mutual respect. I asked a few questions about Paul’s words, which I saw as needing explanation from the Catholic point of view, but truly did not know how a believing Catholic would respond. After all this back and forth posturing without one person answering them I of course searched myself. I think I now understand better some of the difficulty they pose and why my questions have been avoided.

If someone does respond I’ll not be harsh. I was hoping people would be able to see why we believe the way we do by working through these scriptures.
and STILL you are dodging and deflecting while trying to compare 70 Bc in the middle east with 1800s in the united states and refusing to address the awful comments by his leaders
 
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