Blah! Blah! Blah! ... All the talking during Mass

[PattiDay]

Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, who writes an educational and often humorous blog, says that
St. Augustine is often quoted as saying "He who sings prays twice, from the Latin quote, “Qui bene cantat bis orat” or “He who sings well prays twice”. Father goes on to say what Augustine actually said was, “cantare amantis est… Singing belongs to one who loves”. I sing loudly but not so well, so I hope those sitting nearby will consider me as one who loves rather than just irritating.

You can find Father Z at: wdtprs.com/blog/

 

[JReducation]

I always “assumed” that the “sanctuary” meant the area where the main altar is located and the area surrounding it. The church I was referring to also has two side altars: One to the left and one to the right of the main altar. (The BVM’s and St. Joseph’s respectively.) These side altars are separated by an arch and in no way detract from the main altar area and are much smaller as is typical. The church is run by diocesan priests, not an order.

The main altar IS on a “one-step up” raised platform. Then, behind IT are three steps which lead to the “old altar” which holds the tabernacle and the large crucifix hangs above it.

The musical equipment is about three feet away from the main altar platform on the right…next to the arch of the side altar, but not IN the side altar area itself…that’s why I said it’s in the “sanctuary” proper.

If they are not on the same floor as the altar, then they are OK. They are not on the sanctuary. The sanctuary is the floor on which the altar of sacrifice sits. It’s usually a platform floor, at least in the west. In the East it’s often an area marked off by a carpet or a change in floor, such as different tiles.

In many older constructions, the sanctuary begins with a platform that you step up. then you can proceed to another series of steps, usually three, to a higher platform. But the sanctuary itself begins at that first step, even if the altar is on the second level.

I’m trying to remember, but I think that at the Basilica of the Immaculate Concpetion the altar is on a second platform. In other words, you step up one step onto a large open area, now you’re in the sanctuary. The priests, deacons, servers and readaers usually sit at this level. Then there is another platform with several steps. The altar of sacrifice is on the top.

As long as the music is not on that first step, they are not in the sanctuary. They are near, but not on. Near is allowed, on is not. If you go to mass at St. Peter’s in Vatican City, the music is on the side, flush against the sanctuary, but not on the sanctuary floor itself.

No one is allowed on the sanctuary who is not exercising a ministry in the liturgy. Overcrowding is not allowed either. If you have many priests concelebrating and the sanctuary is not large enough to sit them to the sides, then they are to sit in the front rows with the people behind them.

Having them that close to the sanctuary is not always the most practical solution, but it’s not against the rules. Going back to St. Peter’s, they never built a choir loft in the place. It was not done when the basilica was built. That’s a much later concept, introduced by in the 1700s or even later. If I’m not mistaken, it had to do with the pipe organ. It needed to be in a very large space, because those things take up a lot of room. The best place for it was a gallery. Choirs began to sing from there, because the choir master and the organist were often the same person.

The GIRM recommends a place on the side, if there is no other choice, preferably as far from the center as possible, but where they can see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bbigam]

I find it very unhelpful that, when people complain about something inappropriate going on regarding Mass, there’s always a chorus of people shouting “TLM!” That’s not the only answer, or even the main answer. Teaching people the reverence due to the Holy Sacrifice and the Eucharist, and modeling it for them in every way we can, whatever our role is - that’s the answer. Can a Mass in the Extraordinary Form help with that? Sure. So can a reverently celebrated Ordinary Form Mass, and good catechesis, and good modeling by priests, deacons, altar servers, and the congregants alike.

I find that around here most parishes are appropriately reverent and quiet* before and during daily Mass, and some (like mine) are also reverent and quiet before and during Sunday Mass. Of course, there are exceptions. Praying the Rosary communally before Mass can certainly help. Some people will also start to take the hint if you kneel and pray silently before Mass. I don’t know of any place that is quiet in the nave after a Sunday or Holy Day Mass except, admittedly, the FSSP/EF/TLM community - but many places are quiet after daily Mass.

Our pastor, if he hears inappropriate noises during Mass or sees someone playing with their cell phone or whispering, will stop and stare at them until they stop. It’s pretty effective.

*I’m not counting noisy small children as being irreverent.

 

[JReducation]

I find it very unhelpful that, when people complain about something inappropriate going on regarding Mass, there’s always a chorus of people shouting “TLM!” That’s not the only answer, or even the main answer. Teaching people the reverence due to the Holy Sacrifice and the Eucharist, and modeling it for them in every way we can, whatever our role is - that’s the answer. Can a Mass in the Extraordinary Form help with that? Sure. So can a reverently celebrated Ordinary Form Mass, and good catechesis, and good modeling by priests, deacons, altar servers, and the congregants alike.

I find that around here most parishes are appropriately reverent and quiet* before and during daily Mass, and some (like mine) are also reverent and quiet before and during Sunday Mass. Of course, there are exceptions. Praying the Rosary communally before Mass can certainly help. Some people will also start to take the hint if you kneel and pray silently before Mass. I don’t know of any place that is quiet in the nave after a Sunday or Holy Day Mass except, admittedly, the FSSP/EF/TLM community - but many places are quiet after daily Mass.

Our pastor, if he hears inappropriate noises during Mass or sees someone playing with their cell phone or whispering, will stop and stare at them until they stop. It’s pretty effective.

*I’m not counting noisy small children as being irreverent.

I’m going to agree with you. We tend to turn these disccussion into a campaign for the EF as if the mass is soemthing to be peddled. That is wrong. The mass, in both of the Roman Forms and all of the rites is sacred.

We have to learn to think in big pictures. We live in a society where noise pollution is problematic. Manners are not the same today. The people who attend the daily mass, the EF, or mass at a religious house are of like mind. Construction and environments are different due to changes in architecture, which is normal. Architecture does change.

The key is to think of how to educate our people in light of these realities. Scolding them may hep for a few weeks and eventually it wears off and we’re back to the same place. I mean, let’s just look at our own behavior in these threads. How many times to the moderators tell us that we’re being uncharitable or that we should not do this or that and how long does it last before someone comes along and pushes the envelope? The same adults who are sounding the alarm about breaking rules in Church often violate rules of kindness, respect and other right on these fora.

We need to educate ourselves and others on the importance of appropriate behavior in all situations, including church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Apryl]

I find it very unhelpful that, when people complain about something inappropriate going on regarding Mass, there’s always a chorus of people shouting “TLM!” That’s not the only answer, or even the main answer.

As the OP for this thread, I say

… I happen to be a person who has learned that in so many ways, when things are ‘not right’, others say ‘that’s just the way it is’ or 'it’s never going to get any better.

I’m stubborn… hard headed… hopeful… something, but I don’t see situations as hopeless. Rather, I see that something is wrong, but if we address it properly, we can fix it.

I’m just sayin’

 

[stormy99]

**That would drive me nuts…in our Parish, people come in quietly, kneel and meditate before the Mass begins…it is quiet and you can reflect…certainly a child may cry…but no one is speaking to anyone…they are praying…they are quiet…the entire school goes to ALL SCHOOL mass and they never talk…they are reverent in church as they should be.

Who can concentrate with a discussion of sports or news…not I…it’s rude.

stormy**