Blaming it all on Vatican II?

[JReducation]

If we each had $1.00 for everytime that someone says go read Pope X who lived before Vatican II, we’d be very wealthy.

I would encourage people to take a closer look at what the popes from John XXIII to Benedict XVI have written and suggest those readings too.

When all the referrals are to popes before Vatican II, it almost communicates a lack of trust in those holy men who guided the Church from Vatican II to this day.

That’s not fair. They made great contributions to the Church and to its tradition and faith. We should be encouraging readers to look at them too.

We should also read their lives too. I highly recommend John Paul The Great: Remembering a Spiritual Father, by Peggy Noonan, Penguin, 2005.

There was more to this man’s soul than meets the eye.

JR

 

[JReducation]

As I was reading StMaria’s post (No. 20) I was reminded of the great reformers St. Dominic, St. Francis and the great Doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena.

And I asked myself, how a saint would respond in such a situation. I am reminded of Catherine of Siena who had serious concerns because of the state of affairs of the Vatican State, which had been abandoned by Pope Gregory XI who had gone to Avignon, France to escape the persecution of the local King in Italy. Catherine gathered around her a spiritually rich community of men and women committed to the Dominican ideals of prayer and preaching. She wrote Pope Gregory XI in their name. She begged him to return to Rome and take up his duties at the Vatican. Gregory XI was not an easy person to move. He was contentious and also not very courageous. However, Catherine’s prayer and pleading moved Gregory and the papacy was returned to Vatican State as it was known then.

Observe that Catherine is not disconnected from the affairs of her Church. Nor is she a contributor to its decline. However, she gathers people around her who are filled with the spirit of St. Dominic, to pray and to preach. They do not publically criticize the Church or its leaders. Nor do they proselytize other Catholics. Instead, they take up their place around Catherine and follow the example of St. Dominic.

They pray, they preach through dialogue and spiritual direction to anyone who asks for it, and Catherine maintains a confidential contact with the Church leadership. No one was ever aware of her position or her words to the Cardinals and the Pope until her life was studied for canonization.

This is the sanctity that the Church needs today, where differences are celebrated, errors are corrected through persuasion and preaching by those who have the qualifications to preach and the advantages of one group are celebrated by another, as Dominic did when his rule was declined and the exception was made for Francis of Assisi. Here we have Catherine, Dominic and Francis all great reformers and all great lovers of every human being, capable of correcting error through kind actions and words and helping the Church to correct itself without calling out her faults in public. This is sanctity appropriate for today.

JR

 

[agr4028]

There is no denying that the priest shortage began after Vatican II and Mass attendance began to go down. .

Where is this taking place? Every parish around here is GROWING, big-time. Where is this great decline in Mass attendance that I keep reading about here?

 

[Aragorn1]

There is no denying that the priest shortage began after Vatican II and Mass attendance began to go down. Was this due to a change in the values of Society or Vatican II? If it were a change in society then I suspect that the Eastern Catholics should have also seen a decline in the priesthood and in attendance. Did this happen? Maybe someone from the East could comment. This social change should have affected the Protestants as well in the 60’s and 70’s.

Much of the current crisis can be accounted for by the release of this, only three years after the council. It would explain why many people have left for Protestantism since; it would explain the decline in vocations; it would explain the decline in Mass attendance; and the fact that it fails to account for Eastern Catholics is easily explained by a comparison of the immorality of our Western culture versus theirs. And it would not have affected the Protestants one bit, as they already allow contraception.

I think many traditionalists blame V2 for something that is probably the “fault”, as it were, of Humanae Vitae.

Just my :twocents:

 

[stmaria]

=agr4028;3527167]Where is this taking place? Every parish around here is GROWING, big-time. Where is this great decline in Mass attendance that I keep reading about here?

An index of Catholicism’s decline
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. **A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. **
Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church in the centre of the sanctuary or in front of the tabernacle—as was done in many renovations of older churches and in new constructions—has contributed in some way to a decrease in faith in the Real Presence.”

 

[stmaria]

Much of the current crisis can be accounted for by the release of this, only three years after the council. It would explain why many people have left for Protestantism since; it would explain the decline in vocations; it would explain the decline in Mass attendance; and the fact that it fails to account for Eastern Catholics is easily explained by a comparison of the immorality of our Western culture versus theirs. And it would not have affected the Protestants one bit, as they already allow contraception.

I think many traditionalists blame V2 for something that is probably the “fault”, as it were, of Humanae Vitae.

Just my :twocents:

But artificial birth control was always against the teachings of the church. Why weren’t people leaving before VII?

 

[JReducation]

I was born and raised Jewish. Does anyone here realize that there is a steady decline in the practice of public worship among Jews, Orthodox Christians and mainline Christians as well?

The only groups that are growing at rapid rates are the fundamentalist groups such as Evangelicals and Muslims.

Catholics have lost less people than Judaism and Orthodox Christianity have.

The world that we live in is a difficult place for people to practice their faith. People often feel overwhelmed and drop the ball.

We do our younger members a disservice to hang out the Church’s dirty laundry. The media does a good job without our help, so do public schools and state universities.

I know that if it had not been for a friend who invited my son to Life Teen one weekend, he’d be a non practicing Jew. Today he is a practicing Catholic and very committed to the Catholic faith. To me it’s exciting to see him think and talk about hunger, injustice, the immoral treatment of people and recall parts of the Gospel and connect them to things that are happening at his college or our family or even among his friends. When he says, “This reminds me of the time that Jesus said such and such.” I feel very good that he is safe.

I do not want him exposed to this dirty laundering of the Church that he just adopted as his family two years ago. It took me a long time and many years of prayer to bring my children over to the Catholic Church, even though I converted when they were very young.

Now that they are Catholic, I want them to love the Church and see her beauty.

JR

 

[Joe17]

Well, here is what one churchman has written:

“It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point out quite equivocally to Christ. And if Jews cannot see the promises as being fufilled in him, this is just not ill will on their part, but genuinely because of the obscurity of the texts and the tension in the realtionship between the texts and the figure of Jesus. Jesus brings a new meaning to these texts-yet it is he who first gives them their proper coherence and relevance and significance. There are perfectly good reasons, then, For Denying that the Old Testament Refers to Christ and for saying, No, that is what he said. And there are also good reasons for referring to him-that is what the dispute between Jews and Christians is about.”
“God and the World” pg 209

 It states in a nutshell, that the texts of the OT could be read one way or another.  One could understand a non-Catholic saying this, but not a Catholic well versed in the faith, be it a laymen, or especially a priest or bishop.  By miracles and prophecies are we to know that someone if of God.  As we know, Our Lord had those a plenty.  

In the Oath Against Modernism, which all priests up till VII had to take on their steps to ordaination, it spoke of interpereting Scripture as the Church had always done so and that they were to uphold tradition.  The above casts that out the window.  It is not being charitable but uncaring because it is letting the Jews believe that their reading of the OT is still acceptable to God in some way, which is hastening their conversion to the one, true faith.  Since God inspired scripture, cannot that same God see to it that his only begotten Son who came on earth will be able to prove who he says he is and will not neglect to fulfill what the prophets had witten about him in the OT?  Did Christ "forget" some of the psalms or other texts?  I think not!

If you were not able to come up with who wrote the above paragraph, it was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.  If I had that proverbial dollar, I would send it to you.  Read Pascendi by Pius X and Mortalium Animos by Pius XI.

We should be about arguing to the arguement, not to the man.

 

[agr4028]

But artificial birth control was always against the teachings of the church. Why weren’t people leaving before VII?

It was there perhaps, but it wasn’t pounded on until the issuance of Humanae Vitae. I suspect that if the truth were known, a huge majority of today’s “practicing catholics” are using ABC in spite of Humane Vitae.

 

[stmaria]

It was there perhaps, but it wasn’t pounded on until the issuance of Humanae Vitae. I suspect that if the truth were known, a huge majority of today’s “practicing catholics” are using ABC in spite of Humane Vitae.

It can’t be that simple. You’re telling me that people left the One True Church founded by Christ outside of which there is no salvation because they wanted to use artificial birth control? That was the real reason? And priests and nuns went with them?

 

[JReducation]

An index of Catholicism’s decline
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. **A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. **
Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church in the centre of the sanctuary or in front of the tabernacle—as was done in many renovations of older churches and in new constructions—has contributed in some way to a decrease in faith in the Real Presence.”

Did you also factor in that many religious orders of mendicants and monastics deliberately cut back on the number of members that they allowed to become priests to keep the number of priests down in their communities. They did this because they were saturated with priests, which was contrary to the charism of their orders. You mentioned the Franciscans. They’re one of the groups that has gone back to their roots as an order of Brothers, so have the Marianists, the Trappists, the Cistercians, many of the Benedictine abbeys, the Little Brothers of the Poor, the Brothers of Charity, the Missionaries of Charity and a few others.

In addition, the Christian Brothers have less postulants in the USA, but their numbers have grown exponentially in South America, Africa and Asia, especially the Philipines.

Since Vatican II hundreds of new religious congregations have been founded in the developing nations of the world and other new congregations, such as the Missionaries of Charity grew beyond their borders after Vatican II. The Missionaries of Charity now send missionary Indian Sisters to the USA. The Little Brothers of the Poor, send missionaries from Jamaica, to the USA. Opus Dei is growing around the world with both priests and consecrated lay people.

Secular Institutes of consecrated life are becoming more common around the world.

I believe that two things are happening, both very important.

1. Religious orders are going back to their roots and ordaining less men, because bey had turned into orders of priests, which was not the intent of the Church or their founders. They are telling some of their members that they cannot become priests. Sisters also are reorganizing. Old forms of religious life that no longer fit the needs of the Church are dying, but look at all of the new congregations of sisters being born around the world, especially in the developing nations. They all happened after WW II, which obviously includes the years of Vatican II forward.
2. I agree that we need more priests, but don’t you think that it is unfair to expect them to come from religious orders? Religious were not founded to serve according to our wishes. They were founded to live a particular way of life and to perform a specific ministry. That could be anything from cloistered life to preaching. Most were not founded to run parishes, not even the Jesuits who are a society of priests or the Vincentians. They were founded to be missionaries. Isn’t it really up to each diocese to provide for its own priestly needs, not religious orders or congregations?

JR

 

[Joe17]

StMaria is right. It was bigger than Humanae Vitae. The Church is to be counter to the world. Paul VI lessened disciplines(abstaining from meat Mandatory for most of the Church on Friday, cutting Lent effectively from 40 days of fasting down to 2, receiving Communion one hour fasting, etc) which is not a way to strengthen the faithful;
does unless you fast and do penance ring a bell?

VII was a rupture with tradition and cannot be followed in it's teachings if one expects to keep and live the faith.  There are people out there that are living the faith in spite of VII.  But it and the Mass that came soon after it is not what nourished countless souls of centuries past.  The obedience we owe legitimate pastors of souls is to be respected.  But if a priest/bishop commands what is morally evil, than we must not consent to it.  If he commands something against the faith and expects it to be taught to the faithful officially, he will lose his office if he ever had it.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us

 

[JReducation]

VII was a rupture with tradition and cannot be followed in it's teachings if one expects to keep and live the faith.

That’s a very serious statement. I would rethink that statement, if I were you.

You may want to consider these words from Fr. Corapi. I hope they help.

Dissent Poisons

"There is no such thing as being a good Catholic and being disobedient to the Holy Father. There is no such thing as being a good Catholic and being a dissident when it comes to faith and morals. There is no such thing as dissent from authentic and authoritative Church teaching. No such thing. Those who do that separate themselves from Christ and His body. They become dead members of the body of Christ.

I’ll tell you something, I used to contest with these people. I used to debate with them. I used to engage in apologetics with them. I don’t do it anymore and I’m going to tell you something. For the most part, I am more qualified to do it than you are, than most of you. I’ve got a doctorate, I’ve got five degrees in Theology and Philosophy. I know the material, but I don’t do it because it is an exercise in futility and I don’t want to drive myself ‘nuts,’ in plain English, and it doesn’t work.

Now, if I have to defend the faith, I’ll do that, but I do not engage in debates with people, especially with people who have lost the faith. There’s an axiom in metaphysics, ‘Things are received in the mode of the receiver.’ I say this over and over again. You get what you’re ready to get, you receive what you’re ready to receive."

lesfemmes-thetruth.org/poisons.htm

JR

 

[agr4028]

[Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

**Or, maybe vocations decreased because of whiny, gripy, parishoners who complained about every little thing and they got fed up with it.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Catholic kids used to be able to go to Catholic schools for a buck a month, too. But without nuns, the costs skyrocketed and enrollment declined.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Marriage in general has fallen off dramatically in the past few decades. Decline in marriage isn’t exclusive to Catholics

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. **A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. **

We can all pick and choose polls and poll information to suit our cause. I was a plant manager for years, I know how “data” is manipulated.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church in the centre of the sanctuary or in front of the tabernacle—as was done in many renovations of older churches and in new constructions—has contributed in some way to a decrease in faith in the Real Presence.”

I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean. Perhaps you could restate it with clarity?

 

[Joe17]

Tell me, does that not being able to dissent against Church teaching extend to priests and bishops as well? If you go back up to post #28, you will see quoted that Cardinal Ratzinger doesn’t think the Old Testament wasn’t particularly clear on the signs and ways to recognize the Messiah. Vatican Council I states that we are to interpret the Sacred Scriptures as the Church has always done, and not to let any novelty come in.

Read it and explain to me how it can be considered charitable, never mind Catholic, to hold such a position. If I had such a belief, I could almost see myself not being overly concerned about the salvation of the Jewish people. Let them keep to their Old Covenant, and we’ll keep to ours. Problem is, at my judgement, I, knowing that Christ fulfilled all the prophecies/expcetations of the Old Testament and performed miracles and gave new prophecy to his Apostles/Church, that I, as a catholic laymen, had to believe Chirst is the Savior AND preach it to others, in season and out of season. Failure to do so would, in the case and the way I just explained, result in my damnation.

False charity is withholding the truth from souls, esspecially concerning one’s salvation.

Touching on such things, I seriously recommend you read this work by Bishop George Hay (1729-1811) of Scotland titled

General Laws of God, Forbidding all Communication in Religion with those of a False Religion

olrl.org/doctrine/ecumenism_hay.shtml

Immaculate heart of Mary, pray for us

 

[stmaria]

=Joe17;3527289]
VII was a rupture with tradition and cannot be followed in it’s teachings if one expects to keep and live the faith.

I think ‘rupture’ with tradition is too harsh. The documents of VII are ambigious. One must peel back layer after layer of ambiguity and read them in light of the traditional teaching of the Church. Then you can see that the Council documents do not contradict the traditional teachings of the Church.
But, in my opinion and others, the documents were intentionaly written with ambiguity so as not to offend other beliefs. As Pope John XXIII said in his opening address,
" The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another……The Church has always opposed these errors. Frequently she has condemned them with the greatest severity. Nowadays however, the Spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the** medicine of mercy **rather than that of severity…the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this Ecumenical Council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the brethren who are separated from her.”

The Church became less militant and more passive in its approach. Sadly events like the Christ the King processions that attracted hundreds of thousands of Catholics marching through the streets were stopped. Translating the Bible with Protestants became acceptable. Homilies became watered down and written so as not to offend any religion. Mixed marriages, once forbidden except in extreme circumstances, were after Vatican II considered as “good for ecumenism”.
Communion once allowed only for Catholics was now open to non-Catholics if approved by the Bishop. Cremation once considered a mortal sin was now allowed. Joining a sect like the Freemasons was once an automatic excommunicaton but now it is is to be “punished with a just penalty.”
In my opinion a tolerance for error which did not exist before Vatican II now exists in the laity, priesthood and heirarchy. I don’t think you can link all of it to the documents of Vatican II although, because of their ambiguity, they can lead one to believe that all religions are good, praiseworthy and a means of salvation in and of themsleves.

 

[stmaria]

=agr4028;3527370]

Or, maybe vocations decreased because of whiny, gripy, parishoners who complained about every little thing and they got fed up with it.

If that’s what you want to believe, fine.

Catholic kids used to be able to go to Catholic schools for a buck a month, too.** But without nuns**, the costs skyrocketed and enrollment declined.

Where have the nuns gone? I went 12 years to Catholic school 1956-1968. My daughters all went to Catholic school. It can be done but you must have faith.

Marriage in general has fallen off dramatically in the past few decades. Decline in marriage isn’t exclusive to Catholics

But the Church does not believe in divorce so there should be fewer Catholic divorces also I believe that the increase of mixed marriages, between Catholics and Protestants, have greatly added to the increase. This was not allowed before VII. The Church at that time recognized the danger in falling away of the faith in allowing them.

We can all pick and choose polls and poll information to suit our cause. I was a plant manager for years, I know how “data” is manipulated.

Pick and choose one that says the opposite

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church in the centre of the sanctuary or in front of the tabernacle—as was done in many renovations of older churches and in new constructions—has contributed in some way to a decrease in faith in the Real Presence.”

I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean. Perhaps you could restate it with clarity?

SYNOD OF BISHOPS
XI ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY October 2005
vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

,.
…in the majority of countries in Europe, America and Oceania. In some cases, the percentage of those who participate at Sunday Mass is as low as 5%. 7. An increasingly secularized society has caused a weakening in the sense of mystery. This is witnessed in mis-interpretations and distorted ideas in the Council’s liturgical renewal, which has led to rites superficial in nature and devoid of spiritual significance….In many countries, persons have lost, or are gradually losing, an awareness that conversion is necessary for receiving the Eucharist. Its connection with the Sacrament of Penance is not always understood, e.g., the necessity of being in the state of grace before receiving Holy Communion. As a result, the obligation of confessing mortal sins is forgotten…Certainly, thought needs to be given to the great disproportion between the many who receive Holy Communion and the few who go to confession. The faithful frequently receive Holy Communion, without even thinking that they might be in the state of mortal sin… responses coming from various countries note some deficiencies and shadows in the celebration of the Eucharist on the part of both the clergy and the faithful, which seem to have their origin in a weakened sense of the sacred in the Sacrament
Certain actions which challenge a sense of the sacred, often mentioned in the Lineamenta responses, can be of assistance in treating the subject, for example, a neglect by the celebrant and the ministers to use proper liturgical vestments and the participants’ lack of befitting dress for Mass; the use of profane music in Church; the tacit consent to eliminate certain liturgical gestures thought to be too traditional, such as genuflexion before the Blessed Sacrament; an inadequate catechesis for Communion in the hand and its improper distribution; a lack of reverence before, during and after the celebration of Holy Mass, not only by the laity but also the celebrant; the scant architectural and artistic quality of sacred buildings and sacred vessels; and instances of syncretism in integrating elements from other religions in the inculturation of liturgical forms…. a certain way of acting indicates that transubstantiation and the Real Presence are understood in a symbolic sense only. Many responses noted that some celebrants at the liturgy seem more like showmen, who must draw people’s attention to themselves, instead of servants of Christ, called to conduct the faithful to union with him**….It is worth considering whether the removal of the tabernacle from the centre of the sanctuary to an obscure, undignified corner or to a separate chapel, or whether to have placed the celebrant’s chair in the centre of the sanctuary or in front of the tabernacle—as was done in many renovations of older churches and in new constructions—has contributed in some way to a decrease in faith in the Real Presence.”**

 

[Joe17]

StMaria, Cardinal Ratzinger called the Second Vatican Council a “counter syllabus”(of errors). He realised that it was going against what was taught before.

It is good you brought up the giving of Holy Communion to non-catholics which is permitted in certain circumstances of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. That is against the faith in a grave matter, my friend. As I am sure you know, one can only receive the Blessed Sacrament when one is in a state of grace(free of mortal sin to a moral certitude) and fasting. Objectively, a non-Catholic does not believe in everything the Catholic Church teaches. If the person does, than they should become a Catholic.

We, as Catholics, are expected, as I mentioned above to receive Holy Communion in the state of grace. I do my best to get to Confession regularly, as many of us do. Not to cast the Final Judgement on any non Catholic, how come they could go receive the Blessed Sacrament when they may have a mortal sin on their soul(Catholics SHOULD know how to make an examination of conscience, but to expect a non-Catholic to be able to?) because they don’t have or believe in Confession(and even for a Catholic, perfect contrition would put one back into a state of grace, but not permit one to receive w/o absolution)?

The whole idea is utterly foreign to the Faith of our Fathers. We have been told to not give that which is holy to dogs. Again, it is false charity to permit this to happen. Protestantism is, by definition, not united to Catholicism. Objectively, Protestants are not members of the Mystical Body of Chirst and therefore unable to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. For that to occur would be grave scadal and disregard for what St Paul told us all about approaching the Table of the Lord unworthily.

I enjoy your posts. Stay close to Our Lord and Our Lady and St Joseph.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us

 

[JReducation]

StMaria, Cardinal Ratzinger called the Second Vatican Council a “counter syllabus”(of errors). He realised that it was going against what was taught before.

It is good you brought up the giving of Holy Communion to non-catholics which is permitted in certain circumstances of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. That is against the faith in a grave matter, my friend. As I am sure you know, one can only receive the Blessed Sacrament when one is in a state of grace(free of mortal sin to a moral certitude) and fasting. Objectively, a non-Catholic does not believe in everything the Catholic Church teaches. If the person does, than they should become a Catholic.

Pope Benedict XVI gave communion to Tony Blair before he became a Catholic. When the Vatican was asked about it, the answer was that it was permissable, because it was an act of charity. I don’t believe that someone who is as good a theologian as is Benedict, would do something that is gravely sinful.

Also, when Blair finally converted, he was not asked to recant his positions on abortion or homosexual marriage. The Vatican said that Blair still had some development to do in the faith and that this would take time. The Pope was very pleased with Blair’s entrance into the Church.

Objectively, Protestants are not members of the Mystical Body of Chirst

The encyclical UT Unum Sint says they are members of the Mystical Body.

How can the Holy Spirit act within them, if they are not part of the Mystical Body? The Church teaches that the Spirit acts within them and that they have something to contribute to our edification.

The Second Vatican Council made it clear that elements present among other Christians can contribute to the edification of Catholics: “Nor should we forget that whatever is wrought by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of our separated brothers and sisters can contribute to our own edification. Whatever is truly Christian never conflicts with the genuine interests of the faith; indeed, it can always result in a more ample realization of the very mystery of Christ and the Church”. (Parr 48) John Paul II

The Church recognizes the differences and deficits. It is not naive.

The Second Vatican Council did not attempt to give a “description” of post- Reformation Christianity, since “in origin, teaching and spiritual practice, these Churches and Ecclesial Communities differ not only from us but also among themselves to a considerable degree”. (Parr 66)

However . . . there are weaknesses in the link, but the link is not totally missing.

Furthermore, the Sacrament of Baptism, which we have in common, represents “a sacramental bond of unity linking all who have been reborn by means of it”.[118] The theological, pastoral and ecumenical implications of our common Baptism are many and important. Although this sacrament of itself is “only a beginning, a point of departure”, it is "oriented towards a complete profession of faith, a complete incorporation into the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be, and finally, towards a complete participation in Eucharistic communion (Parr 66)

The Holy Father supports that God does use the separated Churches and ecclesial communities as a means of salvation, however impertect that means may be, because there is no limit to how God’s mercy can operate. This is not in conflict with tradition.

**“The Churches and ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation, for the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation. In ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or ecclesial Community, their celebrations are able to nourish the life of grace in their members who participate in them and provide access to the communion of salvation **(Parr 99).

This is not in conflict with tradition.

The tradition has been that there is no salvation outside the Church. That has not changed. But the question has become, how if at all are non Catholic communicated or attached to the Church so that they can achieve salvation through the Church.

The Holy Father finds several ways in which they can do so. He finds elements of the Church among them. Not all of the elements, but enough so that Christ’s spirit can use them.

Therefore, if one has some elements of the Church, then one is not totally cut off from the Mystical Body. It’s my old analogy of a broken bone, rather than an amputated arm.

Our brothers and sisters from other faiths are more like broken bones on the Mystical Body than amputated limbs.

JR

 

[Miles_Mariae]

I believe the problem is not teenagers in Church, that is a strawman. Nobody believes that is wrong, what most object to is the horrid way many Lifeteen Masses degrade into entertainment and disrespect for Jesus.

We should always put Jesus and respect for God as first at Mass, unfortunately some Lifeteen Masses have been focused on entertaining the people instead.

God Bless
Scylla

This is indeed what I was getting at. I have a hard time imagining why anyone would assume that I meant teenagers shouldn’t be in Church. In fact, I am a teenager myself.