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sola_scriptura
Guest
I’ve seen this gibberish before. Statements taken out of context & outright lies. But what can be expected?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Again… say it with me: context… research… context… research… Like I said earlier in the thread, some of you Catholics sound like Protestants quoting Scripture out of context when it came to the Luther quotations. For goodness’ sake, don’t continue that kind of insanity.
Someone said it earlier - it was not just Luther who had concerns about the unhealthy relationship between the Church and politics of the day. Other priests did too. Most historians are convinced that Luther had something akin to bi-polar disorder, which led to times of brilliance and heightened focus, as well as times of depression and desperation.
The Reformation was unfortunate. But ultimately, some type of Reform was inevitable, or the Church would have plunged into greater apostacy with abuses of power and oppression. Catholics and Protestants alike have been guilty of that sin.
O+
Someone said it earlier - it was not just Luther who had concerns about the unhealthy relationship between the Church and politics of the day. Other priests did too. Most historians are convinced that Luther had something akin to bi-polar disorder, which led to times of brilliance and heightened focus, as well as times of depression and desperation.
The Reformation was unfortunate. But ultimately, some type of Reform was inevitable, or the Church would have plunged into greater apostacy with abuses of power and oppression. Catholics and Protestants alike have been guilty of that sin.
O+
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wisdomseeker
Guest
So, are you in accord with ML? do you truly believe that Luther was obeying Christ when he did what he did?
and how was his behavior better than those few sinners of the CC at the time?
the problems of the Church at the time has been greatly exagerated by protestants, they had to justify what they did. the Church can never fall according to Jesus promise. something you guys refuse to believe.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
what he did was destined by God. Indeed God willed it – like He wills everything else that happens.
of course it was. God decreed the deviance of the Catholic Church for a reason, just as He decreed the reformation for a reason. Who can know why?
Its that we don’t accept your definition of what the church of God is. We believe it is a collective of all the faithful in Christ. However, we do also believe the church of Christ can never fail. The reformation was about God ensuring that it did not fail.
Certainly God could have reached into the hearts and minds of the RCC leadership at the time, like Leo X, and humbled them, but for some reason God hardened and blinded those men? God does everything in accordance with His good pleasure and will. Whatever happens will work out for the good, but sometimes it’s hard to find reason in some things God does.
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PerryJ
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So did God support all of these hereies Gnostics, Arian schism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, and Albigensians. Or was it just yours? If God supported them why did they disappear?
If God supports division within the Church does he support the fact that the Church is contraditing. Each having different beliefs and different interpretations concerning homosexual marriage, contraception etc. It would appear that you believe that there is more than one truth. At the end of the 1600s there were 297 different variations of church with different beliefs. God ordained this then? God ordained multiple versions of the truth? Protestants tend to believe they are all united in one truth and that is not true. They have many different versions of faith. So by your thought you think multiple versions of truth is a good thing?
Your statement that God “wills” everything appears to support the Protestant belief in total depravity, and that man does not have free will. Is this what you believe? Is this what your faith believes?
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sola_scriptura
Guest
We can see what God’s intentions for them were by the result. The Protestants live on, the Catholics live on, none of the heresies you mentioned lived on.
I believe in the providence of the all mighty God. Of course gay marriage and some of the other things you mentioned are not in accord with God’s commands to us, but need I remind you God even created the wicked for a purpose (Proverbs 16:4).
Since the church of Christ is not found in buildings or institutions there could be a thousand different little denominations out there but still only one church. Every one who believes in Christ is part of His body – and that is the church of Christ. IMO it is a great sin for any institution to claim otherwise & they reap coals on themselves for doing so.
Yes God ordains everything that happens. The differences in the protestant faith also exist in the Catholic faith. You have different orders who ascribe to different soteriology, even some pretty bizarre orders out there, study your own church you will find vast diversity. Sadly, most Catholics have this unGodly arrogance about them but really haven’t a clue. Your faithful are poorly read in Scripture, generally have a poor grasp of Christian history, few of you even know what terms like soteriolgy mean, and from my discussions with people in this forum (whom I assume are the cream of the crop in terms of your faithful) I’m finding I know more about your own church than most of you do. Start by studying the Benedictines and the Jesuits and their respective soteriology and then come back to me and we can talk about theological diversity within Christianity.
All protestants believe in total depravity. Most Catholics (though your church would officially disagree – but I guess you didn’t know that) are Pelagians, which was a heresy fought against most notably by Augustine.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
****QUOTE=sola_scriptura;4021688]what he did was destined by God. Indeed God willed it – like He wills everything else that happens.
God wills. ok. so our Lord went against His own teachings? first He built one Church. then 1500 hundreds yrs later He decided this isnt working, I am going to do diferently now. I am going to provide them with the SS so each man can go their own way and enterpreted whichever way they want. for 1500 yrs the Church tought the Eucharist to be truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. now Jesus decided that it was time to stop such a believe. most that was tought by the Church Fathers has been thrown out the window by the new christians that left the CC. so a new set of beliefs was created by Jesus to tought all men. basically what you are saying is that Jesus deceived all the early christians who gave their lives for a bunch of lies.
Very good! now why do you think that Jesus did not completely destroy the false Church? **
of course it was. God decreed the deviance of the Catholic Church for a reason, just as He decreed the reformation for a reason. Who can know why?
could be because of man letting temptation get the best of them. let’s see. ML thought he was perfect. he was not a sinner, therefore he decided that he could do better than Christ and make a church with a bunch selfrightousness people. did he succeeded?
Its that we don’t accept your definition of what the church of God is. We believe it is a collective of all the faithful in Christ. However, we do also believe the church of Christ can never fail. The reformation was about God ensuring that it did not fail.
you mean the reformation is what substitute the CC? you mean the CC ceased to exist? and now the protestant churches has assumed the role of True Churches?
Certainly God could have reached into the hearts and minds of the RCC leadership at the time, like Leo X, and humbled them, but for some reason God hardened and blinded those men? God does everything in accordance with His good pleasure and will. Whatever happens will work out for the good, but sometimes it’s hard to find reason in some things God does.**
it seems to me you are reading the NT about the paharisees and apply it to the CC. i cant convince you otherwise.
Certainly God could have made all Jews to believe in His Son but He didnt. why do you think that is? certainly God could have saved the World without sending His Son to suffer horribly. why do you think that is?
]what is the point of Jesus saying love one another?
God wills. ok. so our Lord went against His own teachings? first He built one Church. then 1500 hundreds yrs later He decided this isnt working, I am going to do diferently now. I am going to provide them with the SS so each man can go their own way and enterpreted whichever way they want. for 1500 yrs the Church tought the Eucharist to be truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. now Jesus decided that it was time to stop such a believe. most that was tought by the Church Fathers has been thrown out the window by the new christians that left the CC. so a new set of beliefs was created by Jesus to tought all men. basically what you are saying is that Jesus deceived all the early christians who gave their lives for a bunch of lies.
Very good! now why do you think that Jesus did not completely destroy the false Church? **
of course it was. God decreed the deviance of the Catholic Church for a reason, just as He decreed the reformation for a reason. Who can know why?
could be because of man letting temptation get the best of them. let’s see. ML thought he was perfect. he was not a sinner, therefore he decided that he could do better than Christ and make a church with a bunch selfrightousness people. did he succeeded?
Its that we don’t accept your definition of what the church of God is. We believe it is a collective of all the faithful in Christ. However, we do also believe the church of Christ can never fail. The reformation was about God ensuring that it did not fail.
you mean the reformation is what substitute the CC? you mean the CC ceased to exist? and now the protestant churches has assumed the role of True Churches?
Certainly God could have reached into the hearts and minds of the RCC leadership at the time, like Leo X, and humbled them, but for some reason God hardened and blinded those men? God does everything in accordance with His good pleasure and will. Whatever happens will work out for the good, but sometimes it’s hard to find reason in some things God does.**
it seems to me you are reading the NT about the paharisees and apply it to the CC. i cant convince you otherwise.
Certainly God could have made all Jews to believe in His Son but He didnt. why do you think that is? certainly God could have saved the World without sending His Son to suffer horribly. why do you think that is?
]what is the point of Jesus saying love one another?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
“In accord” with? I dunno what you mean. I am not a Lutheran - I am Methodist, which didn’t descend from Lutheran roots to begin with, but rather from Anglicanism.
I tend to try to balance the history of that time with both Catholic and Protestant historians, both of whom agree that there were egregious problems within the hierarchy of the church and of secular rule. Luther was right to point them out - as did other priests of that time. To schism over it? Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps (who knows?) if Rome had issued a “yes, our leaders screwed up” while at the same time upholding the Church as an institution, a schism could have been prevented. If Luther had been less bull-headed? Perhaps as well.
The Church can never fall. But leaders within it certainly can. And I don’t think Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism is immune to that. But the same mantra for freedom may also apply to the church: we must be eternally vigilant, less we profane or corrupt that which we uphold.
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PerryJ
Guest
Note I was Protestant and studied the Church and became Catholic. Although your intent may be to insult our Faithful you only show your limited breadth of knowledge with the statement of theological diversity. You also make the mistake of believing Catholics do not read the Bible or understand it. If you base your thoughts on this forum only, you have a very limited view of the world. I find most Catholics understand and read the Bible more than Protestants. The difference is they read it in entirety and do not pull out individual verses to extract the thought they wish to support. Our theology follows the Bible, Protestants have the
Bible follow their theology. This is clear in how Luther came to the implication of faith alone by reading Roman 1:17 backwards. It is also clear that he changed the Bible as he was losing a debate with Johann Eck at Liepsic and had to fall back to Jerome’s list of books to support his mistaken belief. If this is true then God does work in very mysterious ways. To redefine the Bible because one reads it backwards and to cut portions out of the Bible because Luther was losing a debate would be mysterious. As you will know both of these thoughts are fully supported by secular investigation and are not Catholic thoughts.
I also found that when I was a Protestant few even understood the concept of free will and total depravity and its implications. It appears that you believe you are one of the elect and that others are not since God created even the wicked. Since you are studied up on theology please tell me how you know that you are one of the elect?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Augustine has this to say:
“**The Church is hidden from no one for it is the Catholic Church itself which is therefore called universal in Greek because it is spread throughout the entire world. It is not allowed to anyone not to know this Church for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden. There are many other things which keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church – the unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here, her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests from the very seat of the Apostle Peter up to the present episcopate keeps me here and last, the very name of Catholic, which not without reason belongs to this Church alone in the face of so many heretics, so much so that although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where a Catholic Church meets, not one of the heretics would dare point out his own basilica or meeting place. The name of the Catholic Church is peculiar to the true Church.” **
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O.S.Luke
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Not all Protestants embrace Calvinism. And Original Sin is embraced by many Protestants as well.
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PerryJ
Guest
I agree. Not all Protestants believe in Calvinism. I was just following up with the original post.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Augustine has this to say:
“**The Church is hidden from no one for it is the Catholic Church itself which is therefore called universal in Greek because it is spread throughout the entire world. It is not allowed to anyone not to know this Church for which reason, according to the word of Jesus Christ, it is not possible that it be hidden. There are many other things which keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church – the unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here, her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests from the very seat of the Apostle Peter up to the present episcopate keeps me here and last, the very name of Catholic, which not without reason belongs to this Church alone in the face of so many heretics, so much so that although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where a Catholic Church meets, not one of the heretics would dare point out his own basilica or meeting place. The name of the Catholic Church is peculiar to the true Church.” **
Of course, Augustine was Catholic. It’s his theory of predestination that Calvin built on, since many of the other things he had to say was pure dribble (just read City of God).
Augustine once thought Jeremiah came into contact with Plato, so obviously some of his theories were a little wacky.
I’ve been hearing the same RCC gibberish for years … if you say something to yourself enough times you will believe it, but I still won’t.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Indeed, in fact most do not (the majority of the Christian world is Arminian / Wesleyan). However, even Arminians do not deny total depravity, but Catholics do. They have to a moderate degree reversed their earlier view of Pelagianism (and essentially admit as much – but of course they make such reversals in a very creative way to retain the illusion of infallibility).
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wisdomseeker
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No, calvin built this theory on his own enterpretation of St Aug writings.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Whatever gibberish helps you sleep at night.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Jesus said once something very important and it is not to be ignored. He said: “Strike the Shepard and the sheep will be scared.”
this is very important to Catholics. because Jesus did not leave and left us without a shepard.
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PerryJ
Guest
You challenge that Catholics are not well read and do not study the Bible yet your reply is “gibberish”. If you’re enlightened is it not your job to try and share this with your fellow man.
Please give us your thoughts on these subjects.
Do you believe you are one of the elect? If so how do you know?
Please give a definitive response to Augustine. Do you have any sources that refutes wisdomseekers post?
At a high level it is great to say God wills everything; however, when you get to the detail do you believe that God created your theology by someone reading text backwards. Do you believe God cut books and portions out of the Bible because Luther was losing a debate? I am not asking you to reply to whether this happened as this is history and can not be refuted. Reading the text backwards is written in Luther’s own hand and is not an interpretation. The theology you place your faith in is based upon these two actions. Of course you sate that Pope Leo was blinded to this theology by God. I agree the Popes probably don’t read the Bible backwards very often. It doesn’t sound quite as grand as many try to make it appear. It wasn’t Luther reading the Bible and having a great theological debate within himself. Christ did not appear before him. Christ did not speak to him like he did Mother Theresa. In fact as you know he joined the Church out of fear and he changed his theology of faith alone out of fear. This is what your grand theology is based upon.
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raumzeitmc2
Guest
Well, no disrespect to you personally, but what might one expect from these outright liars and deceivers?
- John Calvin, Letter to Philip Melanchthon, November 28, 1552.
archive.org/details/lettersofjohncal02calv
books.google.com/books?q=%22it%20is%20worse%20than%20absurd%20that%20parties%20should%20be%20found%20disagreeing%20on%20the%20very%20principles%22&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&hs=YeV&as_qdr=all&filter=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp- Martin Luther, addressing the Conference of Eisenach, July 15, 1540.
books.google.com/books?id=a_xAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA381&dq=%22sake+of+the+Christian+Church,+one+should+tell+a+good,+strong+lie%22&lr=
archive.org/details/lifelettersofmar00smitrich
Another version as given by Jesuit scholar Hartman Grisar:
Luther, Hartmann Grisar S.J., (1915), E.M. Lamond, tr., London, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., volume 4, p. 51.
archive.org/details/grisarsluther04grisuoft
“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; let us deserve this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.”
St. Augustine, Sermon 229D:1, On the Holy Day of Easter.
Works of Saint Augustine, Sermons 184-229, Vol. 6, pt.3, ISBN 1565480503
amazon.com/Sermons-184-229-Works-Saint-Augustine/dp/1565480503
“My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church, by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children.”
Augustine, Of the Morals of the Catholic Church, 34:76
newadvent.org/fathers/1401.htm
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Contarini
Guest
As long as you continue to maintain a discourse of fragmented quotes taken out of context, you are not saying anything that is worth responding to.
If you want to discuss the question of whether lying is ever justified, going back to Augustine (con) and Ambrose (pro), if not earlier (Origen’s Platonic concept of God as a benevolent liar), and embracing a great deal of both Protestant and Catholic casuistry in the early modern period (see Newman’s response to Charles Kingsley for a good statement of the basic moral equivalence of Protestant and Catholic positions here, though directed against a Protestant rather than a Catholic bigot in that case), then that’s a legitimate topic. If you want to talk about Luther’s theology, that’s a legitimate topic. But you don’t care about context or actual theological discussion. You just want to sling mud.
Having noted this, I will disappear from this thread!
Edwin
If you want to discuss the question of whether lying is ever justified, going back to Augustine (con) and Ambrose (pro), if not earlier (Origen’s Platonic concept of God as a benevolent liar), and embracing a great deal of both Protestant and Catholic casuistry in the early modern period (see Newman’s response to Charles Kingsley for a good statement of the basic moral equivalence of Protestant and Catholic positions here, though directed against a Protestant rather than a Catholic bigot in that case), then that’s a legitimate topic. If you want to talk about Luther’s theology, that’s a legitimate topic. But you don’t care about context or actual theological discussion. You just want to sling mud.
Having noted this, I will disappear from this thread!
Edwin
- Status