Blessed Pope John Paul II and Universal Salvation

[Marc_Anthony]

Let me start out by saying I absolutely love Blessed Pope John Paul II. I admire his remarkable efforts at evangelization and his sincere enthusiasm in improving the Church after Vatican II. His role in ending communism and his bravery and heroism during the second World War are also things I love very much about Blessed Pope John Paul II.

But I’ve been doing some research on him (related to another thread on the salvation of Judas) and it seems to me like the Holy Father might believe in universal salvation, or at least the possibility. But this is a heresy, is it not?

When I looked it up, I found a lot of quotes by him on it and they certainly seem to point to the idea that he believed in the possibility of universal salvation.

Is his theology defensible? Is universal salvation undoubtedly heretical? Did the Holy Father actually believe this heresy, if it is a heresy? What does this mean about him or about the teachings of the Church and her guardianship of the truth?

I’ll give you some quotes by Blessed Pope John Paul II:

First, here’s a link to a long list: romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.htm

Here’s a link by a site called tentmaker that says the Catholic Church has believed in universal salvation since Vatican II: tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html

A site that talks about the beliefs of Blessed Pope John Paull II: traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a031htPerplexing_Remi.htm

Some direct quotes:

“Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever “clad in a robe dipped in blood” (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation.” (Message Of John Paul II To The Abbess General Of The Order Of The Most Holy Saviour Of St Bridget)

“This affirmation of the Savior’s “uniqueness” derives from the Lord’s own words. He stated that he came “to give his own life in ransom for the many” (Mk 10:45), that is, for humanity, as St. Paul explains when he writes: “One died for all” (2 Cor 5:14; cf. Rom 5:18). Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life.

“From the death of Christ new life flowers, memory and message of an undying hope: universal salvation.” (Stations Of The Cross At The Colosseum In The Presence Of His Holiness Pope John Paul II, Good Friday 2002)

…All of this strikes me as troubling. But Pope John Paul II is a Blessed. So are we misinterpreting things? I have no problem with him being very optimistic, but I always thought that absolute universal salvation was something Catholics could not believe; there must be at least one human being in Hell. Is this correct? Is this what Pope John Paul II is saying, or is he being misinterpreted?

This should prove to be a fruitful and interesting discussion.

 

[livingwordunity]

Did you check the Vatican’s official website and look up each of those quotes to see if they are legitimate or to see if they were taken out of context? I’m asking because you haven’t posted any links to official Vatican documents for these quotes. Also, I think it’s a bit odd that none of the quotes are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which Blessed John Paul II called a “sure norm for teaching the faith”. Also, I think it might depend on what one means in context when they say “universal salvation” in a sentence. For example, “Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life” sounds like it could mean that Christ’s death on the cross is a gift of salvation universally offered to all mankind that each of us can choose to either accept or reject. And that would not be the same as the heresy of Universal Salvation where everyone ends up in Heaven in the end regardless.

 

[Dorothy]

My understanding of universal salvation is that although Christ died for all, not all accept that salvation.

We can be sure that it is not heretical (if those quotes exist as printed), as Pope John Paul II is a Blessed.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Did you check the Vatican’s official website and look up each of those quotes to see if they are legitimate or to see if they were taken out of context? I’m asking because you haven’t posted any links to official Vatican documents for these quotes. Also, I think it’s a bit odd that none of the quotes are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which Blessed John Paul II called a “sure norm for teaching the faith”. For example, it depends on what one means when they say “universal salvation” in a sentence. In one of your examples “Christ won universal salvation with the gift of his own life” If by this it means that Christ’s death on the cross is a gift of salvation universally offered to all mankind that each of us can choose to either accept or reject it would not be the same as the heresy of Universal Salvation.

It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation…

-Encyclical Redemptoris Missio

This is in contest, I just looked up the encyclical:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html

What I want to know is, am I interpreting what he’s saying correctly? It seems pretty straightforward, and that seems more or less blatantly heretical. But I’m no theologian or scholar of the Holy Father

This is the clearest statement I can find in a Vatican document.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

We can be sure that it is not heretical (if those quotes exist as printed), as Pope John Paul II is a Blessed.

Pope John Paul II is a Blessed, but Blesseds are certainly not inerrant. It does not seem as if he is teaching infallibly here; however, whether he’s teaching infallibly or not the Pope still speaks with a certain authority to Catholics, so these quotes are troubling if we interpret them to mean that he maintained the possibility of universal salvation…unless we are not bound to that teaching? But that seems very wrong as well.

 

[livingwordunity]

It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation…

-Encyclical Redemptoris Missio

This is in contest, I just looked up the encyclical:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html

What I want to know is, am I interpreting what he’s saying correctly? It seems pretty straightforward, and that seems more or less blatantly heretical. But I’m no theologian or scholar of the Holy Father

This is the clearest statement I can find in a Vatican document.

I interpret what it says in that encyclical it in the sense that every man (or woman) who was ever born had the possibility of salvation. What they did with that possibility is another story. In other words, the Catholic Church rejects the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Your interpretation makes a lot of sense, livingwordunity. But this quote by the Holy Father:

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

Seems especially troubling because of his use of the word whether. “Which” would have been fine; “whether” seems troubling.

Here’s a quote from the Catechism:

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost : ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself,** it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4)** [Fine, nothing wrong with that of course], and that for him ‘all things are possible’ ??? It seems like the Catechism is saying that there is the possibility that God will save all men. But isn’t that a heresy?](Mt 19:26).

 

[livingwordunity]

Your interpretation makes a lot of sense, livingwordunity. But this quote by the Holy Father:

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience of July 28, 1999)

Seems especially troubling because of his use of the word whether. “Which” would have been fine; “whether” seems troubling.

We don’t know for certain whether a particular person is in Hell, and we don’t know which others are in Hell. That’s how I interpret that.

Here’s a quote from the Catechism:

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost

I interpret this as no one present and future since the Church teaches that we can’t do anything to save those who are already damned.

Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Hell:
*
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.*

 

[tonyrey]

We don’t know for certain whether a particular person is in Hell, and we don’t know which others are in Hell. That’s how I interpret that.

I interpret this as no one present and future since the Church teaches that we can’t do anything to save those who are already damned.

The Church teaches that we can’t do anything…

 

[L_Marshall]

I’d love to see those statements in the original language, just to check the translation.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’d love to see those statements in the original language, just to check the translation.

I thought that as well, but the only language I can speak or read is English. Can you read Latin?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Does anybody have thoughts on this link?:

traditioninaction.org/Hot…exing_Remi.htm

It’s very negative to the Holy Father and portrays him as a radical thinker whose teachings were in direct opposition to teachings of the Church and past Popes.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I recommend to you this explanation by Cardinal Avery Dulles: firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

Several of those web sites referenced by the Original Poster are web sites that specialize in no-hold-barred, hardball attacks on the Vatican II Council, Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, and virtually every Catholic leader who has done anything after 1960. Read those web sites if you want, but I think they will only lead you astray, lead you into a dark and hopeless place of fear, anger, and anxiety (sounds a bit like Hell, doesn’t it?).

I recommend that you just decide whether you are going to trust the pope and the bishops in communion with him.

If you answer “yes,” then you can relax. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you really trust.

If you answer “no,” then you join a community of Catholics are just about constantly upset and desperate. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you fear is grossly incompetent and is going to get you and everyone killed.

It’s up to you.

 

[livingwordunity]

the Church teaches that we can’t do anything to save those who are already damned.

The Church teaches that we can’t do anything…

The Church also teaches that God doesn’t give the damned who are in Hell any second chances. Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about it:
*
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. *

 

[Dorothy]

I recommend to you this explanation by Cardinal Avery Dulles: firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

Several of those web sites referenced by the Original Poster are web sites that specialize in no-hold-barred, hardball attacks on the Vatican II Council, Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, and virtually every Catholic leader who has done anything after 1960. Read those web sites if you want, but I think they will only lead you astray, lead you into a dark and hopeless place of fear, anger, and anxiety (sounds a bit like Hell, doesn’t it?).

I recommend that you just decide whether you are going to trust the pope and the bishops in communion with him.

If you answer “yes,” then you can relax. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you really trust.

If you answer “no,” then you join a community of Catholics are just about constantly upset and desperate. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you fear is grossly incompetent and is going to get you and everyone killed.

It’s up to you.

Thank you for your insightful post!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I recommend to you this explanation by Cardinal Avery Dulles: firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

Several of those web sites referenced by the Original Poster are web sites that specialize in no-hold-barred, hardball attacks on the Vatican II Council, Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, and virtually every Catholic leader who has done anything after 1960. Read those web sites if you want, but I think they will only lead you astray, lead you into a dark and hopeless place of fear, anger, and anxiety (sounds a bit like Hell, doesn’t it?).

I recommend that you just decide whether you are going to trust the pope and the bishops in communion with him.

If you answer “yes,” then you can relax. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you really trust.

If you answer “no,” then you join a community of Catholics are just about constantly upset and desperate. It’s like being a passenger on a jumbo jet with a pilot you fear is grossly incompetent and is going to get you and everyone killed.

It’s up to you.

Thanks, the article by Cardinal Dulles is excellent.

The gist I’m getting here is that documents by Vatican II and the Holy Father need to be interpreted very carefully and in light of the Church’s unchanging doctrine and Tradition.

 

[underacloud]

It seems like the Catechism is saying that there is the possibility that God will save all men. But isn’t that a heresy?

My understanding is that it is heresy to deny the reality of hell, or to propose that universal salvation is *necessary *because of God’s love. The Church teaches the means of salvation, through Christ. It is heresy to suggest that there is another path, or to suggest that hell is only temporary and that God will eventually forgive everyone because that is His nature.

It is not a heresy to hope for the salvation of all; to hope for a hell that is empty. We can hope and pray that God will save all. But we cannot believe that it is necessary.

 

[jimmy]

I think the general catholic view is that you should atleast hope that all are saved even if you think it is improbable. This was H.U. von Balthasar’s opinion and it is the opinion of most modern theologians. It is not heresy to think that all might end up saved.