Blessed Sacrament

[Mannyfit75]

This is the topic for another thread.
I know this: as a catholic there was a wafer and a cup of wine. You claim that the elements actually become flesh and blood.

Physically their appearance remains the same. The proper term is accident. The outward appearance remains, but the Bread and Wine are no longer bread and wine. Their substance has changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I’m sure you know that it has been scientifically proven through testing that the elements remain wafer and wine. They do not physically change to flesh and blood.

I provided the answer stated above your post.

Do you really think those elements turn into skin and blood.
I took catholic communion a 1000 times, never saw skin and blood.
Did you ever taste actual blood?
It doesn’t taste anything like what is in that chalice

Like I said before during the consecrating of the unleaven bread and wine, the accident (or physical appearance remains the same). In the Eucharist the stubstance becomes wholely Jesus Christ. His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is Truly Present.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Catechism further explains this in details:

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202

*"This presence is called ‘real’ *- by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus** St. John Chrysostom** declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.*

204

And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is** present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts**, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207

1378 Worship of the Eucharist.** In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "**The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."208

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#1373

 

[rpp]

And of course, from the Bible itself.

John 6:51-69 (KJV)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
*
John 6:51-69 (KJV)*

 

[misslollipops]

I do eat Jesus’ flesh and blood during communion. It becomes part of me. The bread is a symbol of His flesh which was shed for me. The juice is a symbol of His Blodd which was also shed for me. By taking these things, I am accepting His sacrifice.
It becomes part of me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I do eat Jesus’ flesh and blood during communion. It becomes part of me. The bread is a symbol of His flesh which was shed for me. The juice is a symbol of His Blodd which was also shed for me. By taking these things, I am accepting His sacrifice.
It becomes part of me.

Misslollipopps,

The Eucharist is not symbolic. This is real presence. If you read rpp’s he cited John 6:51-69.

There is no symbolism at all.

Even St. Paul agrees.

1 Corinthians 11:23-33

For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus Christ on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same, way also the chalice, after supper, saying, “This is chalice is the new covenant of my blood. Do this, as often as you drink of it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat of this bread and drink the chalice, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

"Whoever, therefore, eatsa the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examin himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon him. For that is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

So then, brethren, when you come together, wait for one another- if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home- lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.

((Continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

From the Early Church Fathers,

These ECF did not believe in Symbolism either. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the Disciple of St. John, wrote to the Smyrnaeans.
Circa 110 AD:

They** abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ**, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Circa 110-165 AD:

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn

“[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).

“But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).

So you see in the Bible and in Sacred Tradition, the Eucharist is not symbolic. It is Real Presence of Our Beloved Jesus Christ.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I do eat Jesus’ flesh and blood during communion. It becomes part of me. The bread is a symbol of His flesh which was shed for me. The juice is a symbol of His Blodd which was also shed for me. By taking these things, I am accepting His sacrifice.
It becomes part of me.

These are of course your personal opinion. These opinions bear no resemblance to the teaching of Christ according to scripture.

 

[SyCarl]

It is obvious that Jesus could not have meant everything that is contained in John 6 literally. For example:

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day

Are we seriously to believe that anyone who receives Communion in the Catholic Church is saved? What happens if I go to a Mass, don’t say I am not Catholic and partake? Jesus’ words would say I have eternal life. Clearly then, at least that part was not to be taken literally.

 

[brosam]

Physically their appearance remains the same. The proper term is accident. The outward appearance remains, but the Bread and Wine are no longer bread and wine. Their substance has changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Could you please show me from the scriptures how you came to this conclusion?

 

[davidv]

“Ta dah! Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. And now, for my next trick…”

Where is your respect for your fellow human beings?

 

[estesbob]

These are of course your personal opinion. These opinions bear no resemblance to the teaching of Christ according to scripture.

Based on who’s interpretation of Scripture?

 

[DJgang]

“Ta dah! Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. And now, for my next trick…”

Edited to say…I’m praying for you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

“Ta dah! Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. And now, for my next trick…”

What kind of Christian charity do you have, when all you do is ridicule Catholic doctrine concerning the Body and the Blood of the Lord? Do you wish to insult us Catholic by your comments "Ta dah, you ladies and gentlemen. And now for my next trick."

If you proclaim yourself to be a Christian, by all means conduct yourself as such. Insults are not taken lightly here.

The Catholic Forum Rules states,

1. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board

 

[brosam]

Where is your respect for your fellow human beings?

Human beings, I have respect for. Superstitions, not so much.

 

[brosam]

What kind of Christian charity do you have, when all you do is ridicule Catholic doctrine concerning the Body and the Blood of the Lord? Do you wish to insult us Catholic by your comments "Ta dah, you ladies and gentlemen. And now for my next trick."

If you proclaim yourself to be a Christian, by all means conduct yourself as such. Insults are not taken lightly here.

OK. That was kind of mean. I’ll edit my post if you’ll edit this one. Deal?

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is obvious that Jesus could not have meant everything that is contained in John 6 literally. For example:

Are we seriously to believe that anyone who receives Communion in the Catholic Church is saved? What happens if I go to a Mass, don’t say I am not Catholic and partake? Jesus’ words would say I have eternal life. Clearly then, at least that part was not to be taken literally.

Then why did 70 disciples departed from Jesus after his bread discourse.

John 6:66 states,

After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him.

Many times when Jesus speak symbollically or in parables, he explains himself as such.

If you read verse 52, the Jews disputed amongst themselves.

“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day, for my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I lived because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died, he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus himself was born in Bethelem and in Hebrew Bethelem means house of bread.

 

[Mannyfit75]

OK. That was kind of mean. I’ll edit my post if you’ll edit this one. Deal?

You have known to be more charitable. It would be best that you would.

To prevent other uncharitable post from happening again, always think. Would Jesus say this? How am I suppose to approach my neighbor? With love or with ridicule? This is helps a lot.

 

[brosam]

You have known to be more charitable. It would be best that you would.

To prevent other uncharitable post from happening again, always think. Would Jesus say this? How am I suppose to approach my neighbor? With love or with ridicule? This is helps a lot.

I’ve got to be honest with you, I don’t know if He would phrase it the way I did, but yeah, He would definitely point out that it’s Unbiblical.

And, yes, there are several instances of Jesus ridiculing people in the Bible.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’ve got to be honest with you, I don’t know if He would phrase it the way I did, but yeah, He would definitely point out that it’s Unbiblical.

And, yes, there are several instances of Jesus ridiculing people in the Bible.

He ridicule the Pharisees, Sadducees, who preached but do not practice their faith. Jesus healed more people than he ridiculed. He had crowds following him because of his teaching. He was indeed humble and full of humility.

In the end though, the people ridicule and insulted Our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus himself was was scourged, had a throne crown on his head, and finally crucified. They did this, dispite his love for them.

 

[SyCarl]

Then why did 70 disciples departed from Jesus after his bread discourse.

John 6:66 states,

After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him.

Many times when Jesus speak symbollically or in parables, he explains himself as such.

If you read verse 52, the Jews disputed amongst themselves.

“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day, for my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I lived because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died, he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus himself was born in Bethelem and in Hebrew Bethelem means house of bread.

A number of church fathers did not interpret John 6 in exactly the way that the Catholic Church does. That is not to say some ot them may not have believed in the Real Presence but they didn’t necessarily derive it from John 6.

For example Augustine says:

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already.

Tractates on John Number 25
newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm

The eating that Augustine sees is not with the teeth and stomach but simply by believing.He further says that accepting what Jesus said literally would involve enjoining a vice or crime so it must be figurative.

1. If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53 This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us.

On Christan Doctrine Book 3, Chapter 16
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm

Even as late as Bernard of Clairvaux, we have him saying:

O hard saying! How much harder to bear than that other saying which we repeat daily in church, in memory of the Passion: ‘Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life’ (John 6.54). That signifies, whoso honors My death and after My example mortifies his members which are upon the earth (Col. 3.5) shall have eternal life, even as the apostle says, ‘If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him’ (II Tim. 2.12). And yet many even today recoil from these words and go away, saying by their action if not with their lips, ‘This is a hard saying; who can hear it?’ (John 6.60).

On Loving God.
ccel.org/ccel/bernard/loving_god.vi.html#vi-p1.6