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TomaszA
Guest
I think salvation in Islam requires a person to accept what is true, heresy can leave a person outside of the pale of Islam. If I’m not mistaken, Imam Hanbal was whipped because he refused to deny the eternal and uncreated nature of the Quran.
This is like me saying if Muhammad turns out to be a true prophet I can at least say I believed in God. The fact is you are rejecting what Jesus revealed about Himself and what many prophets spoke of.
You have to understand that we are not saying there are three gods, that is, three separate entities. It has been revealed that there is One God in Three Persons. This isn’t simply an idea you must accept, it’s important because of it’s consequences. If God is one Person in heaven then this means there is an infinite gap between us and Him. It is precisely because of the Trinity that we can marvel at the fact that God Himself bridged the gap and helps us unify with the Divine. God reveals Himself as a Lover and a Friend rather than a Master. What is more beautiful? God as Father or God as Master?
I’m convinced Muhammad never understood the Trinity or what mainstream Christians believe, and so Muslims perpetuate his misunderstandings. We do not believe there is any deity besides God. God is Three Persons.Don’t u think it’s logical that because of not taking any diety besides God , at least Muslims deserve hanging between hell & heaven ?
As for do I think you are deserving of heaven because you believe God is One Person. This seems to be your way of justifying yourself outside of Christianity even if the Trinity is true. The fact is rejecting truth is never justifiable, however, if one is sincerely ignorant they can’t be punished for not knowing. The Trinity is a supernatural truth beyond the reach of reason, it requires God giving us the grace of Faith to believe in it, so if God gives you that grace and you reject it, then yes, you will have to suffer the consequences.
If He is not God then He is the most evil person that ever lived because He convinced others that He is God in flesh. It would not only destroy our religion but yours as well.
We know Jesus is God because that is what He revealed about Himself in word and action. He conquered death through His resurrection and appeared to His Apostles numerous times, comforting them and reassuring them that He prepares a place for them and all who believe in Him in heaven. In this promise I rest my hope.
Furthermore, if Jesus is not God we can’t make sense of the Old Testament prophecies that reveal the coming of God’s Divine servant. Take just one prophecy as an example:
“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace”
Isaiah 9:6
This prophecy was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ, the Mighty God and Prince of Peace.
These do not deny the divinity of Christ, they emphasize His humanity. If Muslims would only take the time to understand what we actually believe about Jesus they would not refer to such verses. So what do we believe about Jesus?
Jesus is one Divine Person with two unified natures, one is human the other is divine. Divine nature is all knowing but human nature is limited and incapable of knowing everything that is Divine. We call the union between God’s Divine and Human nature the hypostatic union, and if you understand this you will understand how Jesus can both know the inner thoughts of men and not know the exact hour of judgment. If Jesus says there is something not known to Him, it’s a sign for us that it’s not meant to be (so the hour of judgment is not meant to be revealed.)
The verse regarding those who called Him “lord” is not a rejection of all who call Him lord, but a warning to hypocrites who call Him “lord” but don’t do the will of the Father. You’ve simply taken that verse out of context.
There is as much danger worshiping Jesus as there would be worshiping As-Baseer as opposed to Ar-Samee.
My concern is only to believe as Jesus taught and as His Apostles passed on to their successors and ultimately to us.
How can there be safety in rejecting that God revealed?
It’s not strange if you understand that God reveals according to the capacity of man. It would not make sense for Him to reveal the Trinity when the Jews were worshiping golden cows. It does make sense for Him to reveal it when the Second Person of the Trinity takes on human form and redeems us.
However, you are mistaken to think that there is no indication of the trinity in the Old Testament, there is, and in fact I sent you a link to an article that goes through many passages, perhaps you should take a look.
Hope this helps!
Pardon any misspellings!
Wa’salaam,
Tomasz
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TomaszA
Guest
First some things need to be explained:
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal because what the Father is = What the Son is = What the Holy Spirit is, thus they are the same and ultimately one in essence.
But if they are the same how can we distinguish the Father from the Son? We can distinguish Them through their relations to each other. So for example we can distinguish God the Father from God the Son because the Father proceeds from no one, however the Son proceeds from the Father. Thus there is a distinction via* procession*. However this distinction doesn’t mean they are unequal in essence (an important point to grasp!)
So, if we say the Father is “greater” because the Son proceeds from the Father, this “greatness” is only relative to their relationship, not what They actually are (since they are the same.) When we say they are co equal we are referring to what They are. The Son is equal to the Father in all ways except by fact that the Son proceeds from the Father.
Now, I also mentioned we can say the Father is “greater” in the sense that the Son took on human flesh. God the Son embraced human nature with it’s limitations, and thus through His hypostatic union He could honestly say that the Father is “greater” but once again, this is only true through the hypostatic union.
If you have any further questions on this, please feel free to ask.
A mystery is a truth revealed by God that is beyond human reasoning. God did reveal certain things to us that are beyond our understanding, He did this so that we may be drawn more closely to Him.I guess , it won’t be easy to understand the Trinity , otherwise it won’t be a mystery anymore
This does not mean that nothing can be known about the Trinity, in fact, a lot can be known however the human mind will never be able to fully grasp God since God is incomprehensible.
Hope this helps!
Wa salaam,
Tomasz
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JMJ_coder
Guest
In the relationship of the Father and the Son - as per the Athanasian Creed:if Father is greater , then at a same time how they can be co-equal ? Knowledge of the unseen belong to the father only …so , He is more knowledgable than the son & sprit .
I guess , it won’t be easy to understand the Trinity , otherwise it won’t be a mystery anymore
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.
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Irene72
Guest
Dont see anything “blessed” about the explanation.
Just the pulling the wool over the eyes of gullible people who try to cling to the hopes of the church because it is customary , traditional and familiar.
Just the pulling the wool over the eyes of gullible people who try to cling to the hopes of the church because it is customary , traditional and familiar.
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
what’s the meaning of this verse ? Looks like Jesus (p) is scolding those who worhipped him.
Matthew 7:21-23:
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
what’s the meaning of this verse ? Looks like Jesus (p) is scolding those who worhipped him.
Matthew 7:21-23:
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
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TomaszA
Guest
Ya Muslimah! I answered this before!
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
I remember 2 answers ( from this forum & other one )
They will be Muslims . I don’t know how that could be possible . Muslims don’t worship Jesus (p) as God.
Another ans they will be bad Christians , hypocrites. So, which one u prefer ?
ummm , is that for me ?Ya Muslimah! I answered this before!
I remember 2 answers ( from this forum & other one )
They will be Muslims . I don’t know how that could be possible . Muslims don’t worship Jesus (p) as God.
Another ans they will be bad Christians , hypocrites. So, which one u prefer ?
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TomaszA
Guest
Yes, for you!
I don’t see how this relates to the passage, do you?
They will be the hypocrites who honor Jesus with their tongues and externals but they don’t do the will of the Father.
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
So , what’s the main condition for a Christian to go to heaven ?
So , on the last day , Jesus (p) will say to many Christians – depart from Me . It means believe in Trinity or believe that Jesus (p) died on the Cross–these are not enough for entering heaven.
So , what’s the main condition for a Christian to go to heaven ?
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TomaszA
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Mere belief is not enough. Satan believes in the Trinity and that Jesus died on the Cross, but he’s still in hell.
Probably as succintly as I can put it is that 1) you must be in a state of sanctifying grace - which means you have been baptized and you have on your soul no serious sins unrepented of. And in order to support this state (that is to be able to stay in such a state after baptism), 2) you must live the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love.
Faith: the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that He has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because He is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.”(DV 5.) For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work(s) through charity.”(⇒ Rom 1:17; ⇒ Gal 5:6.)(CCC 1814)
Hope: the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)
Love: the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
how do u know Satan believes in all these ? Bible has any verses regarding this ?
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JMJ_coder
Guest
He believes these things because he was in the presence of the living God before he turned to evil. He was also very active in trying to dissuade Jesus from His salvific mission, so he is aware of what took place there.
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
A Christian told me Jesus (p) was 100 % human & God at the same time . So , why Satan was after 100 % God when he knew about the scripture ?
there is a verse in Bible that says it’s not possible to tempt God. So , if Satan knew that Jesus (p) is the real God , why he tried to mislead him ?
A Christian told me Jesus (p) was 100 % human & God at the same time . So , why Satan was after 100 % God when he knew about the scripture ?
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JMJ_coder
Guest
One could also ask why does Satan try to fight God when he knows he will lose. Well, I think is pride blinds him to this fact.
Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine. In His divinity, He cannot be tempted, but in His humanity He can be. It was His humanity that Satan tempted - unsuccessfully I might add.
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SimonArizona
Guest
Salaam,
You are misunderstanding this verse by Jesus Christ. He is saying calling Him Lord and doing evil will get you damnation. They must do the will of the Father. Jesus is saying it doesn’t matter if you call Him Lord if you practice lawlessness you will still be judged.
Becareful not to misinterpret Jesus’ sayings!
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SimonArizona
Guest
No, Jesus is saying depart from me you who do evil. Jesus gave a parable that showed His disciples the difference between the good and bad servants. The bad servant said “I will obey you Lord” and then he went off and disobeyed. That is what Jesus is saying here. Even if you call Him Lord, if you do evil, you will depart from Him!
**Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”
John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. **
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SimonArizona
Guest
I will continue to repeat myself and I pray to God that you will understand by Him opening your eyes by the power of the Gospel.
Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every question you ask why Jesus can be tempted and didn’t know things etc IT is because Christ humbled Himself and became man. He took upon all things that come with being a man like hunger, temptation, reliance upon God etc, etc.
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
Salaam/peace
A Christian told me Jesus (P) was always 100 % God all the time …how do u explain that ?
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