Blessed Trinity: Why is God the Father named in reference to the Son but not the Holy Spirit?

[Marybeloved]

While discussing Christian belief in One God in the creed, it was brought up that we believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth. Clearly then the One God properly refers to the Father, not even the Divine nature perse. Our faith tells us that The Father is the source of the deity, not the other way around. He’s the principle of the Son and Holy Spirit. But then I wondered: Why did Our Lord give him the name “Father”? Clearly everyone knows that he is Father of the Son, just as the Son is Son of the Father- But why is he named with reference to the Son alone and not the Holy Spirit when he is the principle of both? By his name, we know who he is in himself: Father of the Son. Yet we know he is not Father of the Holy Spirit. So why have his proper name be “God the Father”? rather than a name that signifies both relations he has with the Son and the Holy Spirit? Does that tell us something about the Trinity?

 

[minkymurph]

While discussing Christian belief in One God in the creed, it was brought up that we believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth. Clearly then the One God properly refers to the Father, not even the Divine nature perse. Our faith tells us that The Father is the source of the deity, not the other way around. He’s the principle of the Son and Holy Spirit. But then I wondered: Why did Our Lord give him the name “Father”? Clearly everyone knows that he is Father of the Son, just as the Son is Son of the Father- But why is he named with reference to the Son alone and not the Holy Spirit when he is the principle of both? By his name, we know who he is in himself: Father of the Son. Yet we know he is not Father of the Holy Spirit. So why have his proper name be “God the Father”? rather than a name that signifies both relations he has with the Son and the Holy Spirit? Does that tell us something about the Trinity?

I once heard a priest say it was incredibly difficult to discuss the Trinity without straying into heresy, due to the fact it is a very difficult concept to explain. Therefore, what I would say may well be corrected by someone else, and they may well be right.

As far as I understand the Catholic concept of the Holy Trinity, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, became son when he became human. Prior to the Incarnation, John refers to Jesus as ‘The Word.’ Jesus referred to God as his Father while on earth in his human state. The words of the Creed state he is ‘begotten, not made of one being with the Father.’ He was ‘begotten’ when he became incarnate. He is not ‘made’ in that he was not created. Jesus is eternal and as the Father, has no beginning and no end because he is equally God. Someone may correct me on this, but my understanding of the Trinity is all three persons are equally God in their own right, and there is no hierarchy within the relationship of the Holy Trinity. However, the Father is the Creator and as such, is the source of life. Creation involved all three persons of the Holy Trinity, but in a different way. The Father was the creator of life, but not the creator of the Son and the Holy Spirit as they were not created. Jesus as ‘The Word’ was the one who went forth into the world as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the one who ‘proceeds.’

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, but is not ‘begotten,’ did not become Incarnate and therefore, is not the Son. In becoming Incarnate, Jesus is the one who became ‘son.’

 

[Theophorus]

I once heard a priest say it was incredibly difficult to discuss the Trinity without straying into heresy, due to the fact it is a very difficult concept to explain. Therefore, what I would say may well be corrected by someone else, and they may well be right.

As far as I understand the Catholic concept of the Holy Trinity, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, became son when he became human. Prior to the Incarnation, John refers to Jesus as ‘The Word.’ Jesus referred to God as his Father while on earth in his human state. The words of the Creed state he is ‘begotten, not made of one being with the Father.’ He was ‘begotten’ when he became incarnate. He is not ‘made’ in that he was not created. Jesus is eternal and as the Father, has no beginning and no end because he is equally God. Someone may correct me on this, but my understanding of the Trinity is all three persons are equally God in their own right, and there is no hierarchy within the relationship of the Holy Trinity. However, the Father is the Creator and as such, is the source of life. Creation involved all three persons of the Holy Trinity, but in a different way. The Father was the creator of life, but not the creator of the Son and the Holy Spirit as they were not created. Jesus as ‘The Word’ was the one who went forth into the world as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the one who ‘proceeds.’

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, but is not ‘begotten,’ did not become Incarnate and therefore, is not the Son. In becoming Incarnate, Jesus is the one who became ‘son.’

The Son has always been Son, the Father always the Father this relationship did not change at the incarnation. The Holy Spirit in proceeding from both Father and Son is for me much more difficult to properly describe but can in a limited fasion be described as the communicative bond of eternal love between Father and Son. There is a relational hierarchy within the Trinity based on the Father-son relationship and the eternal proceeding of the Holy Spirit from both of them but all three distinct persons are equally and fully God by virtue of each completly posessing the one divine essence.

 

[minkymurph]

The Son has always been Son, the Father always the Father this relationship did not change at the incarnation. The Holy Spirit in proceeding from both Father and Son is for me much more difficult to properly describe but can in a limited fasion be described as the communicative bond of eternal love between Father and Son. There is a relational hierarchy within the Trinity based on the Father-son relationship and the eternal proceeding of the Holy Spirit from both of them but all three distinct persons are equally and fully God by virtue of each completly posessing the one divine essence.

Yes, I thought someone may correct me.

Your right, the relationship did not change at the Incarnation. What I was attempting to explain, (badly) was ‘begotten,’ and Jesus became a human ‘son’ in the Incarnation.

You’ve stated another thing I was attempting to explain in a better way, in that all persons of the Trinity are equally and fully God, and in that sense there is no ‘hierarchy.’

 

[Gorgias]

You’re on the right track here. God the Father is the ‘father’ only of the Son; it’s not as if God the Father is both the ‘father of the Son’ and ‘father of the Spirit’ – it’s not as if God has two sons!

The Spirit has a different relationship – the HS proceeds from the Father (with the Son).

 

[Cristiano]

While discussing Christian belief in One God in the creed, it was brought up that we believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth. Clearly then the One God properly refers to the Father, not even the Divine nature perse…

What the creed states is true but it is not a complete doctrinal statement. The reason for the creed has always been to address Christological issues, people already believed in God the Father and they did not have issues with Him. Do not forget that the Son is the creator too as well as the Holy Spirit but the creed does not stress that because the emphasis is on the divinity and on the incarnation.

 

[Wisely]

I once heard a priest say it was incredibly difficult to discuss the Trinity without straying into heresy, due to the fact it is a very difficult concept to explain. Therefore, what I would say may well be corrected by someone else, and they may well be right.

As far as I understand the Catholic concept of the Holy Trinity, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, became son when he became human. Prior to the Incarnation, John refers to Jesus as ‘The Word.’ Jesus referred to God as his Father while on earth in his human state. The words of the Creed state he is ‘begotten, not made of one being with the Father.’ He was ‘begotten’ when he became incarnate. He is not ‘made’ in that he was not created. Jesus is eternal and as the Father, has no beginning and no end because he is equally God. Someone may correct me on this, but my understanding of the Trinity is all three persons are equally God in their own right, and there is no hierarchy within the relationship of the Holy Trinity. However, the Father is the Creator and as such, is the source of life. Creation involved all three persons of the Holy Trinity, but in a different way. The Father was the creator of life, but not the creator of the Son and the Holy Spirit as they were not created. Jesus as ‘The Word’ was the one who went forth into the world as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the one who ‘proceeds.’

The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, but is not ‘begotten,’ did not become Incarnate and therefore, is not the Son. In becoming Incarnate, Jesus is the one who became ‘son.’

That’s Tri-Theism, only the Father is God in His own right. The Son and the Spirit are God because They are from the Father.

 

[minkymurph]

That’s Tri-Theism, only the Father is God in His own right. The Son and the Spirit are God because They are from the Father.

That’s an interesting thought, and a new one to me. Can you elaborate on the meaning of Tri-Theism?

 

[Wisely]

That’s an interesting thought, and a new one to me. Can you elaborate on the meaning of Tri-Theism?

Sure.

Only God the Father is autotheos (God in his own right) and unoriginate.
If the 3 Holy Persons were autotheos, there would be 3 Gods even if They were sharing the Divine nature.

Both the Son/Word and the Spirit are from the Father, They are not unoriginate. The Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds.

 

[minkymurph]

Sure.

Only God the Father is autotheos (God in his own right) and unoriginate.
If the 3 Holy Persons were autotheos, there would be 3 Gods even if They were sharing the Divine nature.

Both the Son/Word and the Spirit are from the Father, They are not unoriginate. The Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds.

I noticed you are Orthodox. That being the case, is it fair to say you and I are going to differ on certain matters relating to the relationship of the Holy Trinity? I believe there was a bit of an upset, to say the least, concerning the insertion of the word ‘proceeds’ into the Creed. The way this was explained to me, is the Orthodox Church have a different understanding of the Trinity, and are more sensitive to Trinitarian language.

Personally I don’t know anything about the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, so I couldn’t explain it from that perspective, and wouldn’t attempt to because I wouldn’t know what I was talking about. As far as I understand it, Roman Catholics believe Jesus is God in his own right, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son. Someone may correct me on that point. I did say in a previous post it is incredibly difficult to discuss the relationship of the Holy Trinity without straying into heresy.

 

[Theophorus]

Among other things, Trinitarian philosophy and Theology is one of those places where Catholics and Eastrn Orthodox, as far as I understand it anyway.

The Catholic understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God is that God is one , eternal and unlimited unique Divine substance/essence which subsists in three persons(which exists in three modes of subsistence may be slightly mor technically accurate). The Father and the Son are of this same one substance(consubstantial) and the spirit proceeds from both Father and Son[sorry for throwing the Filioque about] and is likewise of the singular Divine essence. This does not tend in my mind to the “derived divinity” therory of the Son and Spirit that I have heard previously in relation to the autotheos argument, but the equal nature of the divinity of the three persons of the Trinity. Nor does it to my mind tend towards the heresy of tri-thesim

 

[minkymurph]

Among other things, Trinitarian philosophy and Theology is one of those places where Catholics and Eastrn Orthodox, as far as I understand it anyway.

The Catholic understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God is that God is one , eternal and unlimited unique Divine substance/essence which subsists in three persons(which exists in three modes of subsistence may be slightly mor technically accurate). The Father and the Son are of this same one substance(consubstantial) and the spirit proceeds from both Father and Son[sorry for throwing the Filioque about] and is likewise of the singular Divine essence. This does not tend in my mind to the “derived divinity” therory of the Son and Spirit that I have heard previously in relation to the autotheos argument, but the equal nature of the divinity of the three persons of the Trinity. Nor does it to my mind tend towards the heresy of tri-thesim

It’s not my understanding Catholics believe in tri-theism. They believe there is one God and on this basis the Son and Spirit are God, because there is only one God.

Religions such as the JW’s often say Catholics believe there are three gods because they believe in the Trinity.

 

[minkymurph]

Sure.

Only God the Father is autotheos (God in his own right) and unoriginate.
If the 3 Holy Persons were autotheos, there would be 3 Gods even if They were sharing the Divine nature.

Both the Son/Word and the Spirit are from the Father, They are not unoriginate. The Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds.

I don’t think this is what you are saying, but if the Son and Spirit are not unoriginate, would this not suggest they are not eternal, or not fully God?

 

[Cristiano]

I don’t think this is what you are saying, but if the Son and Spirit are not unoriginate, would this not suggest they are not eternal, or not fully God?

Originated does not mean created. God cannot be created and both the Son and Holy Spirit are not created and they are fully God. If you look at the Nicean Creed you will see that in Latin it says “Génitum, non factum” that means generated, not created.

 

[minkymurph]

Originated does not mean created. God cannot be created and both the Son and Holy Spirit are not created and they are fully God. If you look at the Nicean Creed you will see that in Latin it says “Génitum, non factum” that means generated, not created.

So do Catholics believe the Son and the Holy Spirit are generated from the Father?

 

[Cristiano]

So do Catholics believe the Son and the Holy Spirit are generated from the Father?

Yes the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
I think that the confusion is coming from our limited understanding of the Trinity. Jesus helped us to anthropomorphize the understanding through His incarnation and calling the Godhead Abba. In an anthropomorphic relationship the son must be generated from the father and the love comes from the father to the son and then from the son this love is propagated.

Ratzinger, when he was a cardinal, wrote an excellent little book The God of Jesus Christ: Meditations on the Triune God. That book and give a good insight on what generated means in terms of the relationship between father and son. I just re-ordered another copy because I gave my first one away.

 

[minkymurph]

Yes the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
I think that the confusion is coming from our limited understanding of the Trinity. Jesus helped us to anthropomorphize the understanding through His incarnation and calling the Godhead Abba. In an anthropomorphic relationship the son must be generated from the father and the love comes from the father to the son and then from the son this love is propagated.

Ratzinger, when he was a cardinal, wrote an excellent little book The God of Jesus Christ: Meditations on the Triune God. That book and give a good insight on what generated means in terms of the relationship between father and son. I just re-ordered another copy because I gave my first one away.

Confusion does come from our limited understanding.

Does this not poses the question is Jesus fully God? AH! Heresy!!! :bigyikes:
I said it was impossible to talk about this without straying into heresy.

Being serious again, can you further explain how the Son can be generated by God, and still be God? I’ll tell you why. I have a fundamentalist friend who would answer, ‘God can only begat God.’ I would say that line of thought is flawed as God could begat whatever he wants, and he wanted to begat something that was not God it would be within his capabilities. She would also say there is a hierarchy in the Godhead, which to me is also flawed as a hierarchy suggests the Son and the Spirit are not equally God, and I wasn’t under the impression Catholics believed there was a hierarchy in the Godhead.

 

[Cristiano]

Confusion does come from our limited understanding.

Does this not poses the question is Jesus fully God? AH! Heresy!!! :bigyikes:
I said it was impossible to talk about this without straying into heresy.

Being serious again, can you further explain how the Son can be generated by God, and still be God? I’ll tell you why. I have a fundamentalist friend who would answer, ‘God can only begat God.’ I would say that line of thought is flawed as God could begat whatever he wants, and he wanted to begat something that was not God it would be within his capabilities. She would also say there is a hierarchy in the Godhead, which to me is also flawed as a hierarchy suggests the Son and the Spirit are not equally God, and I wasn’t under the impression Catholics believed there was a hierarchy in the Godhead.

I apologize but English is my second language and so I am not able to delve into the meanings of “to beget”. My understanding is that the basic meaning of “to beget” is “to father/to generate”. God can father anything he wants, but God can only be fathered from God. Generation does not automatically imply hierarchy or causality, it only automatically implies relationship.

 

[Cristiano]

So do Catholics believe the Son and the Holy Spirit are generated from the Father?

Yes the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son…

Just as an FYI my answer to your question is not correct if we use proper Church terminology, even worse my answer sounds heretical. The proper answer is: the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed (are originated) from the Father, the Son by generation, and the Holy Spirit by spiration (and not by generation).

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle.

A communion as an eternal gift to the Son.

We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed)

I was thinking about this today than read the Coptic sight. I thought …OK enough for today.