J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I think we lose something in that approach. And I’m not disparaging the role of the servers.
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M
mercygate
Guest
To my recollection, although I was not then Catholic, the idea that the congregation should make ANY of the responses other than an occasional “Amen” was an introduction by Pius XII around 1959, when he introuced the “dialogue Mass.” This encouraged the congregation to do all of the responses usually reserved to the servers. I didn’t know any better, so I thought it was great and wondered why people around me were were all cranky about it. But I was a smart alec teenager with a taste for ancient languages.the Communion Rite is for distributing communion and no other blessings or actions are part of it. That is why blessing non-communicants is discouraged in this diocese (we have no Tridentine Mass at this time, and such blessings were never part of it in my recollection).
The liturgical reforms begun before V2 even convened called for the faithful to make the responses proper to them, and we were doing so in the Latin Mass I grew up with, so I don’t know what laws your priest is referring to. In those days when a child had to “learn his prayers” in order to make first communion, that is what they were referring to, the Mass prayers and responses in Latin (not merely the other formal prayers outside Mass, Hail Mary etc.).
Lay people generally knew their place, and it was not in meddling with the Sacred Mysteries.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Wow, Pius XII was an innovator?To my recollection, although I was not then Catholic, the idea that the congregation should make ANY of the responses other than an occasional “Amen” was an introduction by Pius XII around 1959, when he introuced the “dialogue Mass.” This encouraged the congregation to do all of the responses usually reserved to the servers. I didn’t know any better, so I thought it was great and wondered why people around me were were all cranky about it. But I was a smart alec teenager with a taste for ancient languages.
Lay people generally knew their place, and it was not in meddling with the Sacred Mysteries.
C
Caesar
Guest
The Tridentine Mass had little drops of modernism added to it since the 1940s. The changing of the Holy Week ceremonies, the scrapping of the second confiteor, the addition of St. Joseph into the Canon, the loss of other little (but meaningful) traditions. Then for a few years in the late '60s the Tridentine Mass was profaned with vernacular and finally in 1970 the full-blown Novus Ordo was forced on the Church.Wow, Pius XII was an innovator?
M
mercygate
Guest
Yup. He restored the Holy Thursday liturgy of the washing of the feet. And the 1962 Missal, which included small changes in the Mass, was his.Wow, Pius XII was an innovator?
K
Kielbasi
Guest
Somewhat so. The dialogue TLM was a major change from previous piety and became popular during the papacy of Pius XII.Wow, Pius XII was an innovator?
The language that Catholics sometimes use " *I heard *mass" certainly indicates what most Catholics did for centuries, they heard it, they did not participate in a vocal way.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I was being sarcastic, Mercygate!Yup. He restored the Holy Thursday liturgy of the washing of the feet. And the 1962 Missal, which included small changes in the Mass, was his.
One more thing to tell my confessor, I reckon.
AND he restored the Holy Thursday washing of the feet?!?!?!? Gosh, how positively antiqurianismistical of the old Holy Father.
Sorry, sorry…
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Ok I’ll give you that one.Sorry, but there is a reason.
In this situation, Mom wants to receive, and is properly disposed to receive, but has along at least one of her children who are not of an age to receive. It is not a good idea to leave very small children alone in a pew, for more than one reason (I can think of eight off the top of my head). If Mom waits for what is keeping them from receiving to be resolved, age, she might not get to Communion for years.
Should Mom expect the kids to get a blessing? No. But should Mom wait until Junior receives his First Communion to receive Communion herself? No.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
And see, that, IMHO, should be the EXTENT of our participation (as a congregation)! Not extending our hands to help the priest consecrate, nor to bless, not saying,“Through Him and With Him and In Him,” etc. Making the responses is not some dangerous slippery slope that leads ipso facto to liturgical dancing in tie-dyed T shirts or femmipriests or every single member of the congregation walking in the processional with their own little banner to carry. Just our little responses, just OUR “We lift them to the Lord” (or “hold them,” for a better translation), just OUR “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you” (orSomewhat so. The dialogue TLM was a major change from previous piety and became popular during the papacy of Pius XII.
The language that Catholics sometimes use " *I heard *mass" certainly indicates what most Catholics did for centuries, they heard it, they did not participate in a vocal way.
Domine, non sum dignus. There, I said it in Latin). Where’s the horror in that?
C
Caesar
Guest
There is nothing stopping us from following along in the Missal and making the responses to ourselves, but the vocal responses should always be made by the servers/acolytes/choir.And see, that, IMHO, should be the EXTENT of our participation (as a congregation)! Not extending our hands to help the priest consecrate, nor to bless, not saying,“Through Him and With Him and In Him,” etc. Making the responses is not some dangerous slippery slope that leads ipso facto to liturgical dancing in tie-dyed T shirts or femmipriests or every single member of the congregation walking in the processional with their own little banner to carry. Just our little responses, just OUR “We lift them to the Lord” (or “hold them,” for a better translation), just OUR “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you” (or
Domine, non sum dignus. There, I said it in Latin). Where’s the horror in that?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
No, actually, Caesar, they shouldn’t, except in a Missa cantata, as has been pointed out. In a dialogue Mass, it’s perfectly legitimate by Church practice, at the TLM, for the congregation to make the responses. The fact that I think ALL masses should be dialogue Masses, sung or not, is MY subjective opinion, but at least I recognize subjective opinion and don’t try to pass it off as a papal edict.There is nothing stopping us from following along in the Missal and making the responses to ourselves, but the vocal responses should always be made by the servers/acolytes/choir.
K
Kielbasi
Guest
I don’t think there is any horror in it, one way or another. It was just a pretty big break from traditional Catholic piety during mass.… Just our little responses, just OUR “We lift them to the Lord” (or “hold them,” for a better translation), just OUR “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you” (or
Domine, non sum dignus. There, I said it in Latin). Where’s the horror in that?
It was just a huge change in paradigm that took a lot of getting used to for the Catholics of that time and culminated in the Mass of today, the Novus Ordo.
The current responses, reading aloud long prayers such as the Creed , is just hugely different than what was considered traditional practice.
M
mercygate
Guest
It’s not just the TLM. If you go to Solemn Evensong at St. Thomas Church, 5th Avenue, you will be asked not to respond or sing along with the choir except at certain marked points. The choral effort is such that the music, aside from the common worship, merits respectful silence from the congregation. It’s a kind of truce between liturgy and art. The line blurs wonderfully in a place like that, and truly: worship is silence when you are listening to a world-class choir like that.No, actually, Caesar, they shouldn’t, except in a Missa cantata, as has been pointed out. In a dialogue Mass, it’s perfectly legitimate by Church practice, at the TLM, for the congregation to make the responses. The fact that I think ALL masses should be dialogue Masses, sung or not, is MY subjective opinion, but at least I recognize subjective opinion and don’t try to pass it off as a papal edict.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Sorry, Kielbasi, I was being rhetorical. It wasn’t directed specifically to you as a question.I don’t think there is any horror in it, one way or another. It was just a pretty big break from traditional Catholic piety during mass.
It was just a huge change in paradigm that took a lot of getting used to for the Catholics of that time and culminated in the Mass of today, the Novus Ordo.
The current responses, reading aloud long prayers such as the Creed , is just hugely different than what was considered traditional practice.
Rhetorical sarcasm. Now I REALLY have something to tell the priest.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Really, you SERIOUSLY need to look up the definition of what the Church calls modernism.The Tridentine Mass had little drops of modernism added to it since the 1940s. The changing of the Holy Week ceremonies, the scrapping of the second confiteor, the addition of St. Joseph into the Canon, the loss of other little (but meaningful) traditions. Then for a few years in the late '60s the Tridentine Mass was profaned with vernacular and finally in 1970 the full-blown Novus Ordo was forced on the Church.
C
Caesar
Guest
As allowed by HH St. Pius X, the congregation is allowed (based on idividual choice) to join in with the choir to sing the Kyrie and the Gloria and such at Missa Cantata and Missa Solemnis (btw, that is what is meant by active participation, the option for the congregation to join the choir in singing the gregorian chant in various places).No, actually, Caesar, they shouldn’t, except in a Missa cantata, as has been pointed out. In a dialogue Mass, it’s perfectly legitimate by Church practice, at the TLM, for the congregation to make the responses. The fact that I think ALL masses should be dialogue Masses, sung or not, is MY subjective opinion, but at least I recognize subjective opinion and don’t try to pass it off as a papal edict.
Besides, the Dialogue Mass was only ever an option, it was never forced upon the Church. Today, most TLMs I find do not use such a thing at Low Mass- Missa Privata is much more common then Missa Recitata thankfully.
And yes, Missa Recitata is allowed, doesnt mean its right though. Kinda like the Novus Ordo…
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
One is, of course, entitled to one’s personal opinion.And yes, Missa Recitata is allowed, doesnt mean its right though. Kinda like the Novus Ordo…
R
rwoehmke
Guest
As a Third Grade student in the Archdiocese of Detroit I had a St. Basil’s Hymn Book and the Children in the Catholic School sang the responses and other hymns at all High Masses; almost every day. There were three different Masses Low Mass with two candles and no singing, just verbal responses, High Mass with six candles and one priest which was sung by all, and Solemn High Mass with a Priest, Deacon, and Sub-deacon with lots of sung responses and hymns. This would have been in the early 40’s during the War.It must be noted that in the 1962 Tridentine Missal the people are permitted to respond with the servers. As for dialogue mass never catching on with the Bishops, that is totally untrue. I read that as early as the late 40s that 2/3 of all US dioceses had them
R
rwoehmke
Guest
Oh yes, and school children, except Alter Boys assigned to other Masses were expected to attend a particular Mass on Sunday and sit with their class, not their families. New Altar Boys started serving at Benediction, then the 5:00 AM Mass on Sunday,always a low Mass, and with increasing experience moved on to other Masses, including weddings and funerals.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I see the value in silence, I like silence, I’m not talking about us not needing silence in Mass, there were huge spaces of silence in the Mass (NO) at the monastery where I was rec. into the Church. I think we would loose something if we didn’t make the responses at Mass. And in terms of the bulk of the Mass, our responses are already relatively minimal.It’s not just the TLM. If you go to Solemn Evensong at St. Thomas Church, 5th Avenue, you will be asked not to respond or sing along with the choir except at certain marked points. The choral effort is such that the music, aside from the common worship, merits respectful silence from the congregation. It’s a kind of truce between liturgy and art. The line blurs wonderfully in a place like that, and truly: worship is silence when you are listening to a world-class choir like that.
I guess this is how I feel or what I believe in a nutshell. All of this seems like a battle between the vertical and the horizontal emphasis of any given Mass. I completely agree that during the “silly season,” as Father Neuhaus put it, there was far too much vertical, far too much touchy feely garbage that put the emphasis on community and on how great “we” were. I see, however, a great risk of the pendulum swinging too far back the other way (thankfully, when pendulums stop, they’re in the middle), to the point where it’s merely mute people, in a Mass where they cannot hear what’s being said, in a language that they don’t understand even if they could hear it, telling their beads or whatever. I’m deeply concerned about that.
You know, God doesn’t need anything. He’s perfect the way He is and was and ever shall be. There is nothing that He lacks. God doesn’t need the Mass. We need the Mass and He gave It to us because WE need it. Just as Christ said that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man, so is the Mass for US. That doesn’t mean we have the right to hive off and do whatever we want with it, but rather that we are what is God is seeking, as the shepherd looks for the lost sheep, through the Mass. It’s to propitiate God for OUR sins, so we surely should be a bit apart of it, surely we CAN and should say,“Thanks be to God” and “Lord, I am not worthy” and “Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on US.” I don’t see how the prayerful speaking of those words, a murmer, even, if you will, can detract from worship. I don’t get it. I kind of hope I never do.
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