Blessing at communion and no laity responses at high mass

[Caesar]

Too much individualism in the Church today. What I feel, what I want to believe. Thats tha major problem in the Church, this sentiment that “I will believe whatever I want to and reject what I dont”.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Too much individualism in the Church today. What I feel, what I want to believe. Thats tha major problem in the Church, this sentiment that “I will believe whatever I want to and reject what I dont”.

I don’t see anyone here advocating the rejection of any belief of the Church, Caesar.

By the way, you can buy a mirror fairly cheap down the chemist’s.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Actually, you have no certain knowledge of how God-Fearing Jews did it at the time of the Temple sacrifices. And they are certainly called upon to make responses in synagogue, even the ultra Orthodox.

God fearing Jews stayed in the temple courtyard.
The priests were in the temple.

Im not sure how the modern synagogue worship comes into play here?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

God fearing Jews stayed in the temple courtyard.
The priests were in the temple.

Im not sure how the modern synagogue worship comes into play here?

Jewish men entered into the area where the sacrificial altar stood and, if I recall correctly, women stayed in their courtyard, gentiles in another (or there was a court beyond which Gentiles were not allowed to pass). The High Priest alone, once a year, entered into the Holy of Holies.

We don’t know what responses were made in the sacrificial services of Christ’s time. And I’m not talking about modern synagogues, I’m talking about synagogues contemporary with Christ and the Apostles.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Have the TLM, if you will, but that’s one of the things I think is a blessing of the post-Conciliar Church.

There is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

“Post-Conciliar Church” is a term used by schismatics such as SSPX. Are you saying you’re in union with the schismatics? Are you saying the “Post-Conciliar Church” is a different church from the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II?

I’m just checking because you like to lump me in with the schismatics. Painting with a broad brush is a dangerous mindset.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

There is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

“Post-Conciliar Church” is a term used by schismatics such as SSPX. Are you saying you’re in union with the schismatics? Are you saying the “Post-Conciliar Church” is a different church from the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II?

I’m just checking because you like to lump me in with the schismatics. Painting with a broad brush is a dangerous mindset.

A) Despite our disagreements, I don’t know you well enough to lump you.

B) No, I haven’t said nor do I believe that it’s a different Church. The term isn’t only used by schismatics (such as the SSPX, to cite the example you use), it’s also used by scholars, Catholic and otherwise, journalists, priests, etc. Google it and go through all of the entries. Naturally, there is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but we use terms such as “post-conciliar,” “pre-Vatican II,” “pre-Trent,” etc., as bench marks in the history of that One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (just as we use labels to identify rites, ie, the Tridentine rite, the Mozarabic rite, the old Sarum Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Pauline Rite, but it’s all the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass).

 

[AJV]

Yup. He restored the Holy Thursday liturgy of the washing of the feet. And the 1962 Missal, which included small changes in the Mass, was his.

The 1962 missal was actually Pope Bl John XXIII. This included simplification of certain rites, the rubrics, the calendar, the dropping of certain feasts, the unofficial elimination of the second Confiteor (not mentioned in Ritus Servandus), the complete dropping of the remaining Poper Last Gospels, the addition of St. Joseph in the Communicantes and the instruction to omit the Prayers at the foot of the altar and the Last Gospel when processions precede or follow the Mass. Some final changes to the Holy Week rites (already changed in 1956) were also made: such as the colour of the vestments.

Pius XII (or is it Ven. Pius XII) in the revisions of 1956 did not restore the washing of the feet. He moved it from outside Mass to within the Mass.

He was actually MUCH more of a reformer than many realise. Most people cite Mediator Dei to say he was not, but actually Mediator Dei laid the groundwork for many of the changes more so by reserving changes to papal authority (note also that this was the year when he began the reform commission including forum favourite Bugsy) Versus populum, the vernacular all started in his pontificate and were not rejected by him. In his pontificate also took place the radical liturgical conferences such as Lugano and Assisi whose proposals went a little further than the 1965 missal.

 

[AJV]

As allowed by HH St. Pius X, the congregation is allowed (based on idividual choice) to join in with the choir to sing the Kyrie and the Gloria and such at Missa Cantata and Missa Solemnis (btw, that is what is meant by active participation, the option for the congregation to join the choir in singing the gregorian chant in various places).

Besides, the Dialogue Mass was only ever an option, it was never forced upon the Church. Today, most TLMs I find do not use such a thing at Low Mass- Missa Privata is much more common then Missa Recitata thankfully.

And yes, Missa Recitata is allowed, doesnt mean its right though. Kinda like the Novus Ordo…

Why would it not be right?

And moreover, why should the congregation join in with the choir if they can’t with the server?

New fangled practises sniff

 

[AJV]

The Tridentine Mass had little drops of modernism added to it since the 1940s. The changing of the Holy Week ceremonies, the scrapping of the second confiteor, the addition of St. Joseph into the Canon, the loss of other little (but meaningful) traditions. Then for a few years in the late '60s the Tridentine Mass was profaned with vernacular and finally in 1970 the full-blown Novus Ordo was forced on the Church.

Isn’t some on the list a little extreme?

Why do you need the second confiteor? (which historically has crept in from the rituale)

Why is St. Joseph’s name in the Canon wrong? Names were added continuously uptil St. Pius V. He restricted them to primarily Roman saints and martyrs because he had very great veneration for them (look at his calendar: very few feasts and many of the martyrs). Even the Gregorian and Gelasian books have more saints.

What other meaningful traditions are you referring to?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Isn’t some on the list a little extreme?

Why do you need the second confiteor? (which historically has crept in from the rituale)

Why is St. Joseph’s name in the Canon wrong? Names were added continuously uptil St. Pius V. He restricted them to primarily Roman saints and martyrs because he had very great veneration for them (look at his calendar: very few feasts and many of the martyrs). Even the Gregorian and Gelasian books have more saints.

What other meaningful traditions are you referring to?

The poster you’re refering to has latched onto a term, “modernism”, without a clear understanding of what the Church means by “modernism.” The poster was already urged to do some reading on the topic. In the post to which you are refering, I rather think the poster has lapsed into what HH Pope Pius XII would call “antiquarianism,” but since you and Mercygate have pointed out what a tree-huggin’, innovatin’ hippy HE was, I doubt anything he said or did would be credible to the poster.

 

[AJV]

The poster you’re refering to has latched onto a term, “modernism”, without a clear understanding of what the Church means by “modernism.” The poster was already urged to do some reading on the topic. In the post to which you are refering, I rather think the poster has lapsed into what HH Pope Pius XII would call “antiquarianism,” but since you and Mercygate have pointed out what a tree-huggin’, innovatin’ hippy HE was, I doubt anything he said or did would be credible to the poster.

Whoops! Looks as if I stepped into a high voltage thread.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Ok I’ll give you that one.

As a retread parent, thank you.