Blind faith?

[fhansen]

Why do you suppose God tells us it’s more blessed to believe without seeing? How is justice somehow served by so doing? We’re not asked to behave this way in any other area of life, are we?

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Why do you suppose God tells us it’s more blessed to believe without seeing? How is justice somehow served by so doing? We’re not asked to behave this way in any other area of life, are we?

As an Agnostic, I say to you, it is the perfect set-up. Nobody can prove or disprove God or the contents of the Bible that we are expected to live by.

:twocents: Personally, I think the writers of the Bible didn’t expect for people to think outside the box and merge into diversity. Those who disagree with diversity–as well as those who disagree with an absolutely Christian world-- cause a struggle in Time.

I’d go deeper into this, but I don’t want to impose.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[fhansen]

As an Agnostic, I say to you, it is the perfect set-up. Nobody can prove or disprove God or the contents of the Bible that we are expected to live by.

:twocents: Personally, I think the writers of the Bible didn’t expect for people to think outside the box and merge into diversity. Those who disagree with diversity–as well as those who disagree with an absolutely Christian world-- cause a struggle in Time.

I’d go deeper into this, but I don’t want to impose.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

**Are you saying that the struggle is between absolutism and relativism? If this is an alternative way of distinguishing between faith and diversity, then it seems to point to the fact that faith should become imperative for one who believes that we’d be lost without an absolutist framework, especially for morality.
**

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Are you saying that the struggle is between absolutism and relativism? If this is an alternative way of distinguishing between faith and diversity, then it seems to point to the fact that faith should become imperative for one who believes that we’d be lost without an absolutist framework, especially for morality.

Not quite. There are many people out there who don’t need faith to thrive, and yet, there are the precious several who could not live without it. The struggle is tolerance vs. intolerance; peace vs. war; understanding vs. ignorance; knowing vs. believing; spirituality vs. religion (yes, there is a difference, and it took me forever to figure that out ). I think we’re in the transition, but it’s only the beginning.

:twocents:

It’ll be a nice show.

 

[fhansen]

Not quite. There are many people out there who don’t need faith to thrive, and yet, there are the precious several who could not live without it. The struggle is tolerance vs. intolerance; peace vs. war; understanding vs. ignorance; knowing vs. believing; spirituality vs. religion (yes, there is a difference, and it took me forever to figure that out ). I think we’re in the transition, but it’s only the beginning.

:twocents:

It’ll be a nice show.

So are you of the opinion that faith or religion, rather than sin or some other human trait, is responsible for intolerance, war, ignorance, etc.? What do you think is the cure in any case?

 

[elts1956]

So are you of the opinion that faith or religion, rather than sin or some other human trait, is responsible for intolerance, war, ignorance, etc.? What do you think is the cure in any case?

It isn’t Faith, or Religion that causes sinful traits. It is the interpretation of the Faith, or Religion that causes intolerance, and war. Ignorance is the result of not sharing one’s faith in kindness and charity. It is so easy to judge another because they refuse to see our Faith as we see it. To me, Religion is the structure, Faith is the of the Holy Spirit. We are too quick to make final judgements about the Faith of others. Only through respectful interchange of tenants of Faith will Peace result. The way we do it now, everyone who doesn’t believe what we believe is going to Hell. Of course those of other Faiths think the same of us. If all of us are right about everyone else’s Faith, Hell is going to be a very busy place.

Now, having said that, I firmly believe the Catholic Church carries all the truths that Christ gave to His apostles. Whether I can convince anyone else of the truths of the Church is a matter of direction from the Holy Spirit who knows when it is time to deliver the message.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

So are you of the opinion that faith or religion, rather than sin or some other human trait, is responsible for intolerance, war, ignorance, etc.? What do you think is the cure in any case?

It’s all about understanding and compassion. :yup:

Ironically Yours.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you for the replies. But we’ve gotten off-topic and I’d like to steer back to the question in the OP and see if we can come up with sound answers for why faith is so important. It must be that, from Gods’ perspective, lack of faith in Him is harmful to man, counterproductive to mans’ happiness, a disorder of nature, a matter of injustice even. What good might be accomplished in us by requiring that our faith must exist without the benefit of sight? Any thoughts on this?

 

[St_Gregory]

Thank you for the replies. But we’ve gotten off-topic and I’d like to steer back to the question in the OP and see if we can come up with sound answers for why faith is so important. It must be that, from Gods’ perspective, lack of faith in Him is harmful to man, counterproductive to mans’ happiness, a disorder of nature, a matter of injustice even. What good might be accomplished in us by requiring that our faith must exist without the benefit of sight? Any thoughts on this?

Well Faith without science has the advantage that God can create an epistemic distance between Him and Man. This closeness to God gives us opportunity to relate to God but not too close that we cannot exercise true freewill and moral agency.
The problem is that it becomes difficult to say Christianity is true and other religions are wrong or imperfect since believers in other religions also have faith.

 

[Spirit_of_Truth]

Why do you suppose God tells us it’s more blessed to believe without seeing? How is justice somehow served by so doing? We’re not asked to behave this way in any other area of life, are we?

Those who do not know the truth (by sight) can not be accountable for the lack of. It does not mean they are not accountable under their conditions just one less burden without the responsibility of endowment.

 

[fhansen]

Well Faith without science has the advantage that God can create an epistemic distance between Him and Man. This closeness to God gives us opportunity to relate to God but not too close that we cannot exercise true freewill and moral agency.
The problem is that it becomes difficult to say Christianity is true and other religions are wrong or imperfect since believers in other religions also have faith.

**OK. But if we’re trying to understand Gods’ desire and criteria for mans’ faith rather than prove which religion is true, maybe even the other religions’ imperfect knowledge of Him still represents faith in that it’s at least an expression of a hunger for truth- the acknowledgement of “something bigger” and the seeking of it. Nostra Aetate and other Church documents address this. Maybe even this less than perfect faith pleases God more than we know, depending on the orientation of the heart of the one holding it-and depending on where it ultimately leads him.

But either way, your idea of the necessity of God keeping His distance so that we can be tested, like the parable of the tenants, makes sense. But those tenants were being tested to see what they would do in the owners’ absence. But of what value is it that, in the case of our religion, the Owner also tests us to see if we have faith that He even exists? Does this mean that we should, for righteousness’ sake, already know?**

 

[Ender]

Why do you suppose God tells us it’s more blessed to believe without seeing? How is justice somehow served by so doing? We’re not asked to behave this way in any other area of life, are we?

Let’s first recognize that faith and blind faith are not the same thing and just as the former is celebrated the latter is equally denounced. Thomas was commended for believing but Christ made the distinction between the proof that Thomas required and the faith exhibited by those who believed without proof. Faith in no way means blind acceptance:

“To believe is nothing other than to think with assent … Believers are also thinkers: in believing, they think and in thinking, they believe… If faith does not think it is nothing.” (Fides et Ratio #79)

Ender

 

[fhansen]

**I’ll add some related thoughts I’ve considered recently, for better or worse, to see if they stir anything up for this thread.

The Garden of Eden was a place where man *knew *God existed- they “saw” Him in some capacity-and yet rejected Him. This world we live in now is a place where we don’t have the benefit of knowing God in that same direct manner and yet we’re asked to believe without seeing. I think that, in purgatory, man gains the benefit of knowing Gods’ existence with the certainty “sight” gives, although definitely not with the Beatific Vision, and he then must continue to work out his salvation with this benefit contributing its’ effect. His salvation is actually a done deal at that point, but not yet realized by him until purification is accomplished-the purification being his final convincing of the perfection of Gods’ will-the uniting of mans’ will with Gods’ -something obviously lacking in Adam & Eve -in spite of all the benefits they were given. **

 

[fhansen]

Let’s first recognize that faith and blind faith are not the same thing and just as the former is celebrated the latter is equally denounced. Thomas was commended for believing but Christ made the distinction between the proof that Thomas required and the faith exhibited by those who believed without proof. Faith in no way means blind acceptance:

“To believe is nothing other than to think with assent … Believers are also thinkers: in believing, they think and in thinking, they believe… If faith does not think it is nothing.” (Fides et Ratio #79)

Ender

That’s a good point. I liked my title but figured I might get some feedback on it.Thanks, while it serves the purpose I should probably make it a point to be more precise.