bloc voting religions, what's your say about it?

[choy]

the Philippine elections has come and gone, and as usual one of the main focus is the “endorsements” or certain religious leaders who claim that all their followers would vote for homever is endorsed

one of the most notable is the Iglesia ni Cristo, who claims its part of their doctrine of unity that the entire congregation would vote on the candidates chosen by their leaders (the Executive Minister for national posts, the local Ministers for local posts)

whats your opinion on this?

for me, i believe its nothing more than small cults trying to wield political power by guaranteeing votes to certain candidates in exchange for favors when these candidates are already seated in power, which guarantees them protection or favorable laws. its also an abuse of democracy that should never ever be tolerated by the nation.

do you also believe this practice is protected by the Freedom or Religion? even if it seems counter to the ideals of Democracy that each individual person should be able to voice their own opinion in an election as to whom they want to elect as leader?

 

[TriuneUnity]

the Philippine elections has come and gone, and as usual one of the main focus is the “endorsements” or certain religious leaders who claim that all their followers would vote for homever is endorsed

one of the most notable is the Iglesia ni Cristo, who claims its part of their doctrine of unity that the entire congregation would vote on the candidates chosen by their leaders (the Executive Minister for national posts, the local Ministers for local posts)

whats your opinion on this?

for me, i believe its nothing more than small cults trying to wield political power by guaranteeing votes to certain candidates in exchange for favors when these candidates are already seated in power, which guarantees them protection or favorable laws. its also an abuse of democracy that should never ever be tolerated by the nation.

do you also believe this practice is protected by the Freedom or Religion? even if it seems counter to the ideals of Democracy that each individual person should be able to voice their own opinion in an election as to whom they want to elect as leader?

I believe it would fall under the freedom of religion for an ecclesiastical figure to say that his congregation should vote one way or another. However, if that ecclesiastical figure used illegal methods of enforcing such a vote, that would not be. The member of said religion is still free to ignore whatever their church officials have to say about the matter.

 

[pinay]

the Philippine elections has come and gone, and as usual one of the main focus is the “endorsements” or certain religious leaders who claim that all their followers would vote for homever is endorsed

one of the most notable is the Iglesia ni Cristo, who claims its part of their doctrine of unity that the entire congregation would vote on the candidates chosen by their leaders (the Executive Minister for national posts, the local Ministers for local posts)

whats your opinion on this?

for me, i believe its nothing more than small cults trying to wield political power by guaranteeing votes to certain candidates in exchange for favors when these candidates are already seated in power, which guarantees them protection or favorable laws. its also an abuse of democracy that should never ever be tolerated by the nation.

do you also believe this practice is protected by the Freedom or Religion? even if it seems counter to the ideals of Democracy that each individual person should be able to voice their own opinion in an election as to whom they want to elect as leader?

Hi Choy.

Yes, it is still freedom of religion because there is no governing body that mandates membership to Iglesia Ni Cristo. Everybody is free to join or not join any religious order. So, if it is a qualification for the religious order to form a voting bloc, then their membership to such a religious organization predetermines their desire to vote with the bloc.

Freedom of religion simply implies that the government will not mandate a state religion. Therefore, even if I agree with you that it invites religious organizations to lobby, I do recognize their freedom to do so.

Iglesia ni Cristo is endorsing the Aquino-Roxas ticket. Last election news is showing Aquino is a sure win. But Binay is leading the VP ticket.

Manny Pacquiao won a Congressional seat against Chiongbian - amazingly.

At least, it is showing that the Filipinos have improved in political awareness.

 

[LoyalViews]

I don’t think the Igesia Ni Christo (the Moravians) are a cult, though. They are just a false-church. They aren’t a church, they’re an “ecclesial structure”.

 

[Dokimas]

If they vote for the best for the country (and along godly lines), I have no problem.

 

[gelsbern]

It’s too bad we don’t do that here. We’ve been brainwashed into believe there should be a separation of church and state where religion shouldn’t influence government. That is a false view. The restriction in this country is that government cannot influence religion but there is no restriction going the other way. It’s freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Perhaps our churches need to sacrifice their 501c3 statuses and start informing their parishioners and suggesting who to vote for. Again I said suggesting, not forcing. Good for the Philippine churches there for what they are doing.

 

[choy]

It’s too bad we don’t do that here. We’ve been brainwashed into believe there should be a separation of church and state where religion shouldn’t influence government. That is a false view. The restriction in this country is that government cannot influence religion but there is no restriction going the other way. It’s freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Perhaps our churches need to sacrifice their 501c3 statuses and start informing their parishioners and suggesting who to vote for. Again I said suggesting, not forcing. Good for the Philippine churches there for what they are doing.

well, on the other hand the problem here is that this practice is used by small sects who obviously employ this to seek political power in a country where they are a small minority.

i have to agree with you that if the purpose is good, this seems like a good deal. unfortunately those who use this today are those who have personal agendas

by the way, the last 3 endorsements by the Iglesia ni Cristo for the Philippine presidency were known corrupt politicians, and the last two won the elections and became president. so i would hardly say their choice is of divine inspiration.

 

[choy]

Hi Choy.

Yes, it is still freedom of religion because there is no governing body that mandates membership to Iglesia Ni Cristo. Everybody is free to join or not join any religious order. So, if it is a qualification for the religious order to form a voting bloc, then their membership to such a religious organization predetermines their desire to vote with the bloc.

Freedom of religion simply implies that the government will not mandate a state religion. Therefore, even if I agree with you that it invites religious organizations to lobby, I do recognize their freedom to do so.

Iglesia ni Cristo is endorsing the Aquino-Roxas ticket. Last election news is showing Aquino is a sure win. But Binay is leading the VP ticket.

Manny Pacquiao won a Congressional seat against Chiongbian - amazingly.

At least, it is showing that the Filipinos have improved in political awareness.

what i meant was, does Freedom of Religion guarantee a religious group a right to control who their members vote for in an election? isn’t this a violation of the secrecy of the ballot?

also, note that the members are emotionally blackmailed into following the voting decree. if they don’t vote for the mandated candidates, they are expelled from the religion and told they would go to hell. because the bloc voting is part of their Doctrine of Unity, that they should be of one mind. so violating that means you’re not united with the rest of their church, thus you will be expelled.

 

[pinay]

what i meant was, does Freedom of Religion guarantee a religious group a right to control who their members vote for in an election? isn’t this a violation of the secrecy of the ballot?

also, note that the members are emotionally blackmailed into following the voting decree. if they don’t vote for the mandated candidates, they are expelled from the religion and told they would go to hell. because the bloc voting is part of their Doctrine of Unity, that they should be of one mind. so violating that means you’re not united with the rest of their church, thus you will be expelled.

Hello Choy. I’m not a lawyer or a lawmaker so this is purely my understanding of Philippine law.

Freedom of Religion does not infringe on what religious organizations ask their members to do. This is the same as, say, a business or a non-profit organization having a voting bloc. The secrecy of the ballot is not violated because the church does not go into the precinct with the church member. If somebody casts a vote for a presidential candidate at the precinct and somebody else says she voted for Erap, that doesn’t violate the secrecy of the ballot.

Whether the church emotionally blackmails any member of the church to voting according to the bloc is also not covered in Freedom of Religion either. This is also the same as a business or a non-profit organization blackmailing their members to vote according to the bloc. There are businesses out there who will fire an employee if they don’t vote accordingly - a very popular example these days is the Chiongbian enterprise - if the Chiongbians find out you didn’t vote for their Congressman you are out the door.

What is covered is that the government cannot force anybody to join a religious organization. So, if you don’t agree with the teachings of Iglesia ni Cristo, you can leave under the Freedom of Religion protection.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Go back to my wife’s home town of Baguio (we are going there in three weeks ) and you’ll hear the same thing—they all wish Marcos was still in charge. Since “People Power” and democracy, the country has done nothing but go down hill morally, economically, infrastructure-wise, and it’s generally a filthy mess. Everybody I talk to in Baguio misses Marcos. It’s interesting how the media here portrayed him and how the people generally saw him there.

Let’s just hope the new President Aquino is more impressive than the housewife-turned-president Cory Aquino or the sister and national annoyance Kris Aquino! Yeesh! Kris Aquino and Boy Abunda are the most annoying people on the face of the earth second only to Wowowee and Showtime! My wife hates that stuff! LOL

 

[Izdaari]

I can’t imagine the people in my church (Assemblies of God, btw) being able to agree on a candidate or party. Our membership ranges from Democrat to Republican, Green to Libertarian (). Nor would we take kindly to church leaders telling us, or even suggesting to us, how we should vote. The first sermon I hear on politics will probably be my last, because it would be the occasion for my leaving and looking for a new church.

 

[choy]

I can’t imagine the people in my church (Assemblies of God, btw) being able to agree on a candidate or party. Our membership ranges from Democrat to Republican, Green to Libertarian (). Nor would we take kindly to church leaders telling us, or even suggesting to us, how we should vote. The first sermon I hear on politics will probably be my last, because it would be the occasion for my leaving and looking for a new church.

good for you

i think church leaders, being leaders of the faith and citizens of the country as well, has the moral obligation to remind people to vote according to their conscience and align their choices with the Will of God and the teachings of Christ

but outright directing someone to specifically vote for a candidate or party is an outright no-no

 

[Izdaari]

good for you

i think church leaders, being leaders of the faith and citizens of the country as well, has the moral obligation to remind people to vote according to their conscience and align their choices with the Will of God and the teachings of Christ

but outright directing someone to specifically vote for a candidate or party is an outright no-no

That’s how I feel about it!

Christ’s Kingdom is not of this earth, and that’s how it’ll be until His return.

 

[pinay]

Go back to my wife’s home town of Baguio (we are going there in three weeks ) and you’ll hear the same thing—they all wish Marcos was still in charge. Since “People Power” and democracy, the country has done nothing but go down hill morally, economically, infrastructure-wise, and it’s generally a filthy mess. Everybody I talk to in Baguio misses Marcos. It’s interesting how the media here portrayed him and how the people generally saw him there.

Let’s just hope the new President Aquino is more impressive than the housewife-turned-president Cory Aquino or the sister and national annoyance Kris Aquino! Yeesh! Kris Aquino and Boy Abunda are the most annoying people on the face of the earth second only to Wowowee and Showtime! My wife hates that stuff! LOL

Mabuhay gurney! You’re not Filipino yourself?

I grew up in Martial Law, so no, I don’t miss Marcos even with my relatives serving in the Philippine Assembly under him. But yes, it has gone downhill from there except for the time of Ramos. But, history shows that corruption will take a very long time - even generations - to get corrected. It is a slow process where the next person harnessing the reigns of power tend to pocket as much as they can because, “if Marcos can do it, why shouldn’t I?”. It will take several “good people” in power before the citizenry will gain political maturity and realize that there is a better system out there and by virtue of democracy, they have the power to get it.

The Filipinos aren’t there yet - as evidenced by Joseph Estrada’s political support. Yes, I’m skeptical of Noynoy Aquino, but between him, Erap and Villar… I’ll take Noynoy.

I love Wowwawee! There’s always some crazy drama going on there it’s hilarious.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can stomach just about everything but Wowowee!? The lady Pooh drives me nuts, Willie Revillame thinks he can sing, the people in the audience seem like they’re all hopped up on speed, and it’s just generally loud, bombastic, stupid and annoying. My wife told me she’s humiliated that Filipinos cooked up a show like that! Showtime is even worse, I mean, waaaaay worse!

My wife and I like to watch Banana Split. That show’s hilarious. My wife thinks I only want to watch it because Angelica Panganiban is on there. She’s probably right!

I am not pinoy myself, to answer your question. My wife is. She, like you, grew up under martial law. She is Ilocana and, as you probably know, they’re big fans of the Marcoses. My wife’s entire family had no problem with Marcos. When he was president there were building projects, cleaner streets, the U.S. had a presence at Clark and Subic, there was infrastructure investment, and generally the economy wasn’t bad. When that goofball Aquino took over, nothing got done. Ramos was never even in the Philippines. He was on a constant world travel adventure outside of the Phils, and Estrada was a train wreck. Macapagal has been corrupt. The voting and cronyism has been bad. Mike Arroyo, her husband, is a crumb, too. The Philippines is just full of tribalism in politics, graft, extortion, greed, bribes, and corruption. Like you, I hope Noynoy Aquino can clean it up but if he stays true to filipino political tradition, he’ll be on the take for bribes and other nonsense real soon.

I think the Ilocanos would rather have Marcos back because, yeah he was corrupt, but he also built up the country in positive ways and let some of the foreign aid in (although he intercepted a lot for Imelda’s shoe collection) and the infrastructure and general economy faired better. A lot of Filipinos, like some Americans, feel like whomever they vote for it won’t make much difference. Like the Who song: “come meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

LDS? Come on girl!? How in the heck did that happen!? Pinay and LDS. We’ve got to do something about that! We need to de-Joseph Smithasize you ASAP!

Mabuhay gurney! You’re not Filipino yourself?

I grew up in Martial Law, so no, I don’t miss Marcos even with my relatives serving in the Philippine Assembly under him. But yes, it has gone downhill from there except for the time of Ramos. But, history shows that corruption will take a very long time - even generations - to get corrected. It is a slow process where the next person harnessing the reigns of power tend to pocket as much as they can because, “if Marcos can do it, why shouldn’t I?”. It will take several “good people” in power before the citizenry will gain political maturity and realize that there is a better system out there and by virtue of democracy, they have the power to get it.

The Filipinos aren’t there yet - as evidenced by Joseph Estrada’s political support. Yes, I’m skeptical of Noynoy Aquino, but between him, Erap and Villar… I’ll take Noynoy.

I love Wowwawee! There’s always some crazy drama going on there it’s hilarious.