Blood of Christ

[Michael_Owens]

Wow. I asked a simple but emotional question. I know when it comes to treatment of addiction, many people have contrasting views. No one out here need bother argue about it. I put what I did on here as a learning process in my spiritual practice. I hold my faith in the highest regard. Without it, I am nothing as has been proven throughout the coarse of my life. I have no intention on “bashing” any style of recovery. Let’s face it, No program in the world has very good stats. It’s simply very hard to recover from addiction to anything, caffeine and nicotine included. More people perish than recover. I know through THOROUGH ALL methods I have used to recover, including AA, I gave it my all! Its life or death and I’m not blindly tinkering around with my addictions or my Catholic faith. The two most important things to me, why would I tinker. I know what is, and has been for awhile, helping me at this point. It saddens me that people are overlooking the wonderful point of spiritual practice. We all have are own style and devout practiced under the church’s guidelines. I dont think anything is magical about it. All it is is the feeling of our Savior seeping into my heart deeper, thats all. I sure didnt mean to make a fuss. I have a lot going on in my life now and through guidance of Father Dan and the other Vicar’s I am HAPPY, not buzzed. Trust me, if anyone out there knows the difference, I do. I wish you all happiness and blessings in our lives. Lets move on. -Michael

 

[ConstantineTG]

And I am saddened that people would promote magical, superstitious, or talismanic thinking about the Holy Eucharist.

So its just another alcoholic drink? The way people talk here, Lourdes water seems to be given higher regard than the alcoholic drink served during Mass.

I guess this woman is superstitious as well…

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 5:21-34[/BIBLEDRB]

And this is talismanic…

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:12[/BIBLEDRB]

Right, Mark?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think that the problem is not with the sacrament but it is with our weakness in our behaviors and in our faith. Do you remember when Peter got out of the boat and started to walk on the water toward Jesus? I also think that sometime the difference between trusting in God and testing God could be a fine line.

Of course I agree with this. But people are dismissing it without even giving the faith of the person a chance. “You’re an alcoholic consuming an alcoholic drink, you don’t stand a chance! Even though I am not sure where your faith lies.”

 

[Cristiano]

Of course I agree with this. But people are dismissing it without even giving the faith of the person a chance. “You’re an alcoholic consuming an alcoholic drink, you don’t stand a chance! Even though I am not sure where your faith lies.”

You see, you are giving another example of our weakness in our faith, in our pride we think that we either merit our salvation or nobody can merit it for us. Sometime we are too prideful or fearful for ourselves and for the others thus we do not accept what the graces of God can truly do for us. We just want to limit His graces to a subset that we are comfortable with.

My pastor once was making fun of himself and of the congregation when he said that if the Holy Spirit where to show up the way He did at Pentecost we would tell Him to go away because He is behaving in an excessive manner and overdoing it.

I think that my interaction with the Eastern Churches and theology has really helped me to grow from that point of view and it allowed me to accept some things plainly as a mystery, and that can be quite difficult for a Thomistic Catholic with a physics background.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You see, you are giving another example of our weakness in our faith, in our pride we think that we either merit our salvation or nobody can merit it for us. Sometime we are too prideful or fearful for ourselves and for the others thus we do not accept what the graces of God can truly do for us. We just want to limit His graces to a subset that we are comfortable with.

My pastor once was making fun of himself and of the congregation when he said that if the Holy Spirit where to show up the way He did at Pentecost we would tell Him to go away because He is behaving in an excessive manner and overdoing it.

Can we really judge pride in acts of faith? If I jumped off a boat to walk on water because of my faith, is that prideful to do so? Or maybe we’re just too afraid to stand up for what we should really be believing in because we’ve been beaten down by polemics from anti-Catholics?

And why is it absurd to say that the Precious Blood cannot cause harm to an alcoholic, yet we defend that what looks and tastes like wine is indeed the Precious Blood of our Lord? Is there a limit of one miracle in force?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wow. I asked a simple but emotional question. I know when it comes to treatment of addiction, many people have contrasting views. No one out here need bother argue about it. I put what I did on here as a learning process in my spiritual practice. I hold my faith in the highest regard. Without it, I am nothing as has been proven throughout the coarse of my life. I have no intention on “bashing” any style of recovery. Let’s face it, No program in the world has very good stats. It’s simply very hard to recover from addiction to anything, caffeine and nicotine included. More people perish than recover. I know through THOROUGH ALL methods I have used to recover, including AA, I gave it my all! Its life or death and I’m not blindly tinkering around with my addictions or my Catholic faith. The two most important things to me, why would I tinker. I know what is, and has been for awhile, helping me at this point. It saddens me that people are overlooking the wonderful point of spiritual practice. We all have are own style and devout practiced under the church’s guidelines. I dont think anything is magical about it. All it is is the feeling of our Savior seeping into my heart deeper, thats all. I sure didnt mean to make a fuss. I have a lot going on in my life now and through guidance of Father Dan and the other Vicar’s I am HAPPY, not buzzed. Trust me, if anyone out there knows the difference, I do. I wish you all happiness and blessings in our lives. Lets move on. -Michael

You did what you felt the Lord has called you to do, and your faith has preserved you. It in itself is a testament to what a person with proper disposition in faith can achieve. May God bless you always.

 

[Cristiano]

Can we really judge pride in acts of faith?..

Acts of faith are acts that should be associated with faith but they do not always imply true faith. Just look at receiving communion when in a state of mortal sin, when asking for absolution during confession when not being truly contrite and really willing to change, when crossing ourselves with holy water as a habit or just because others do it, when going through the sacrament of marriage while shaking up together and wasting time on the computer watching porno.

…And why is it absurd to say that the Precious Blood cannot cause harm to an alcoholic, yet we defend that what looks and tastes like wine is indeed the Precious Blood of our Lord? Is there a limit of one miracle in force?

Nothing absurd with that and that is why I supported this view in my first post. This is also why I said that sometime we like to limit God’s graces to only what makes us comfortable. God’s graces work when we let them work and He will not force them on us.

Just look at the example of the cup and germs. I do not believe that I will get sick by drinking from the chalice after everybody else, as an EMHC I do that all the time to consume what is left over. What about if I will get sick? I do not care because it could be because of million different reasons and anyway I am not giving up receiving the Lord because of that. However, I would not drink from the chalice just to make the point that I would not get sick, that to me is testing God.

 

[ProVobis]

Feelings can come from a buzz! We are to do what is right and not what feels good.

Good point. Drinking even a sip on an empty stomach (which is presumed here) can produce a little bit of a high, sometimes enough to affect one’s driving ability, as I found out after a small sample at a Sanoma vineyard.

 

[MarkThompson]

So its just another alcoholic drink? The way people talk here, Lourdes water seems to be given higher regard than the alcoholic drink served during Mass.

I guess this woman is superstitious as well…

And this is talismanic…

Right, Mark?

St. Thomas said (S. Th. III.77.3),
(I)t is an effect of the Divine power that the sacramental species continue in the being which they had when the substance of the bread and wine was present, it follows that they continue in their action. Consequently they retain every action which they had while the substance of the bread and wine remained, now that the substance of the bread and wine has passed into the body and blood of Christ.
In addition to being wrong and presuming upon miracles, your magical view is particularly unfortunate because it implies that the primary failing of people who cannot receive glutinous hosts, or priests who use mustum in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Church, is their lack of faith. “If he truly believed, he could eat a whole loaf and surely God would protect him!” It is fine to repeat Biblical or mediaeval stories about such things, or to pray that God might deign to grant an undeserved miracle, but by and large we live in the real world and ought to be mindful of that fact.

 

[Cristiano]

St. Thomas said (S. Th. III.77.3),
(I)t is an effect of the Divine power that the sacramental species continue in the being which they had when the substance of the bread and wine was present, it follows that they continue in their action. Consequently they retain every action which they had while the substance of the bread and wine remained, now that the substance of the bread and wine has passed into the body and blood of Christ.
In addition to being wrong and presuming upon miracles, your magical view is particularly unfortunate because it implies that the primary failing of people who cannot receive glutinous hosts, or priests who use mustum in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Church, is their lack of faith. “If he truly believed, he could eat a whole loaf and surely God would protect him!” It is fine to repeat Biblical or mediaeval stories about such things, or to pray that God might deign to grant an undeserved miracle, but by and large we live in the real world and ought to be mindful of that fact.

St. Thomas statement is not a dogmatic statement in its fullness. If it were so then we ought to reject the Eucharistic miracles. I think that your explanation of someone needing low gluten or mustum as proof of God not affecting the accidents is a fallacy. You have not shown that there is no lack of faith. Again there is a big difference between lack of faith, limited faith, complete trust in God, and testing God. Is it our faith truly that great? I know that mine is much smaller than a mustard seed and I am not surprised by what happens or does not happen to me. If I had more faith my life would be quite different.

 

[Michael_Owens]

Wow, still going at it, huh? Well, I cannot stop that I suppose. I can say for sure I am not testing God. I brought up that specific point to my priest. He didnt seem to think by talking to me and his impression of me that I was doing anything like that or he would have said, trust me. I dont understand why this offends so much. Like wetting my lips with wine can give me a “buzz”. Absurd at best. Thank you out there for standing up for me, or my path I’m on. I will continue to do it because it has brought joy to my practice. My family and friends AND priest agree. So, I’ll leave it there. Dont fool yourself out there about me. I mean no harm. I’m just standing up for my beliefs and practice, thats all!!! -Michael

 

[ProVobis]

Like wetting my lips with wine …

And this is shared by others?

 

[theotimus]

I simply want to experience all the Eucharist has to offer and increase my faith. I have e-mailed the head Pastor of my parish and have yet to get a reply. Figured I could get some insight here. Thank you for your views and advice. God Bless. -Michael

You need to be properly disposed to receive fruits (graces) of the Holy Eucharist.

Necessary Dispositions for receiving the Fruits of the Sacrament
archive.org/stream/secretofsanctity00fran#page/70/mode/2up/search/71

Conditions of a good Communion christianperfection.info/tta44.php

The Holy Eucharist Directory by Catholic Tradition
catholictradition.org/Eucharist/holy-eucharist.htm

 

[ConstantineTG]

St. Thomas said (S. Th. III.77.3),
(I)t is an effect of the Divine power that the sacramental species continue in the being which they had when the substance of the bread and wine was present, it follows that they continue in their action. Consequently they retain every action which they had while the substance of the bread and wine remained, now that the substance of the bread and wine has passed into the body and blood of Christ.
In addition to being wrong and presuming upon miracles, your magical view is particularly unfortunate because it implies that the primary failing of people who cannot receive glutinous hosts, or priests who use mustum in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Church, is their lack of faith. “If he truly believed, he could eat a whole loaf and surely God would protect him!” It is fine to repeat Biblical or mediaeval stories about such things, or to pray that God might deign to grant an undeserved miracle, but by and large we live in the real world and ought to be mindful of that fact.

We live in a real world? You mean these Biblical stories aren’t real? You mean that God doesn’t do miracles in the real world?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Acts of faith are acts that should be associated with faith but they do not always imply true faith. Just look at receiving communion when in a state of mortal sin, when asking for absolution during confession when not being truly contrite and really willing to change, when crossing ourselves with holy water as a habit or just because others do it, when going through the sacrament of marriage while shaking up together and wasting time on the computer watching porno.

Well, we can’t judge how much faith or the lack of it is there. Thats what I’m saying in this thread. Surely miracles happen in the real world. For us to simply dismiss something is contrary to our faith. We can’t say too that there’s 100% guarantee that a miracle will happen. Faith is personal, only God can see your soul and how genuine your faith really is. For us to say that, “hey, it won’t happen,” is being presumptuous.

Nothing absurd with that and that is why I supported this view in my first post. This is also why I said that sometime we like to limit God’s graces to only what makes us comfortable. God’s graces work when we let them work and He will not force them on us.

Just look at the example of the cup and germs. I do not believe that I will get sick by drinking from the chalice after everybody else, as an EMHC I do that all the time to consume what is left over. What about if I will get sick? I do not care because it could be because of million different reasons and anyway I am not giving up receiving the Lord because of that. However, I would not drink from the chalice just to make the point that I would not get sick, that to me is testing God.

That is right. I don’t think the OP was trying to test God anyway. He just wants to receive the Eucharist in the fullness of the sign of the Sacrament. As we can see, it did him no harm.

 

[dochawk]

Quite simply, because the accidents are unchanged, and ability (vel non) to do harm is one of the accidents of drink.

I’m a long time from my serious studies of Aristotle, but . . .

Aristotle proposed that all of the physical world was of a single substances, because diffent substances would not be able to act upon one another.

Turnups, iron, and wine are all the same substance, but with different accidents. Bread and Body, wine and Blood, have the same accidents, but different substance.

I’m a quarter or three even further removed from my Thomistic studies, but deviating from Aristotle far enough to connect accidents and substance (substance of wine, in prior posts) sounds like a translation error.

hawk

 

[MarkThompson]

We live in a real world? You mean these Biblical stories aren’t real? You mean that God doesn’t do miracles in the real world?

When Pope Benedict XVI’s shadow starts healing people, you’ll be sure to let me know, won’t you?

I’m a long time from my serious studies of Aristotle, but . . .

Aristotle proposed that all of the physical world was of a single substances, because diffent substances would not be able to act upon one another.

Turnups, iron, and wine are all the same substance, but with different accidents. Bread and Body, wine and Blood, have the same accidents, but different substance.

I’m a quarter or three even further removed from my Thomistic studies, but deviating from Aristotle far enough to connect accidents and substance (substance of wine, in prior posts) sounds like a translation error.

hawk

No, Aristotle was not a monist; for his basic view, see Books Z and H of the Metaphysics. Aristotle would never have thought that a man, a house, and a law all share the same substance. Rather, substance, crudely said, is the essence, the to ti ên einai (what it is to be), something. Anyway, our very theory of transubstantiation presupposes that a change in substance is possible.

As to the translation, it is fine. The Latin of the passage I quoted says:
peciebus sacramentalibus datum est divina virtute ut remaneant in suo esse quod habebant substantia panis et vini existente, consequens est quod etiam remaneant in suo agere. Et ideo omnem actionem quam poterant agere substantia panis et vini existente, possunt etiam agere substantia panis et vini transeunte in corpus et sanguinem Christi.
My own quite literal translation would say:
It is given by divine power to the sacramental species that they remain in their esse (being) which they had when the substance of bread and wine existed, [and] consequently they also remain in their action. And therefore every action which they could do when the substance of bread and wine existed, they can also do when the substance of bread and wine passes over into the body and blood of Christ.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When Pope Benedict XVI’s shadow starts healing people, you’ll be sure to let me know, won’t you?

So what, this is not part of the real world too?