Blunt ? re HV and NFP

[iGrace]

In reading more about NFP and HV regarding abstaining during fertile times it is hard to believe that God is asking us to not satisfy each other in any other way. Does sperm have to be deposited inside the woman all the time every time? What about when a woman is infertile, menstrating or post-menapause. What is the point of following the HV rules then?

 

[Pug]

iGrace:

Does sperm have to be deposited inside the woman all the time every time?

I’m sure someone else will come along and answer the rest of your question, but I’d like to take a stab at this part. The answer is no, but…

Say you begin to have relations with your wife, but a needy child intervenes. There is no sin in stopping the relations without completion of the relations. Say you begin foreplay, and the man is accidentally premature. That is not a problem. But it is not right to have a plan to have the man always be “premature”. The context should be to have full relations.

 

[RichT]

Pug:

I’m sure someone else will come along and answer the rest of your question, but I’d like to take a stab at this part. The answer is no, but…

Say you begin to have relations with your wife, but a needy child intervenes. There is no sin in stopping the relations without completion of the relations. Say you begin foreplay, and the man is accidentally premature. That is not a problem. But it is not right to have a plan to have the man always be “premature”. The context should be to have full relations.

This falls under intention. As Pug has stated, if a man reaches the point of no return unintentionally, then that is not considered a sin. Just remember, God knows your intentions.

In regards to the woman, it is okay to fulfil a woman’s sexual needs in other ways. Women are different and some are capable of being “satisfied” from intercourse and some are not. Just keep in mind that all sexual acts need to have intercourse as the final outcome.

 

[Princess_Abby]

The marital embrace must ALWAYS be unitive and procreative. A husband and wife must cherish each other with dignity, each act being both love-giving and LIFE-giving. Not only must the semen “be deposited” in the woman each time, but it must be transmitted into and only the vagina. This is the only place that a husband and wife experience full unity and openness to life, due to the reproductive capabilities of both. Obviously, if a husband and wife are interrupted due to a needy child (as indicated by Pug), or if a husband is ACCIDENTALLY premature, then there is no sin. It is all in the intention.

As for “satisfying” one another, that is not necessarily part of the equation. We must LOVE one another. A wife is meant to be a receptacle of the love given to her by her husband. She is so moved by this love that she, in reception, returns the love. We should never be concentrated on our own pleasure during the act of love. Foreplay should be about showing our love for the other person, culminating in the marital embrace.

Are you asking why we should practice NFP and not contracept during infertile times? Because, again, we must remain open to life and God’s will for our lives. There are always stories of women conceiving even on the pill and on an unlikely (or seemingly impossible) day of their cycle. Aside from the medical dangers of being on the chemicals of the pill and the negative effect it can have on a forming baby, we cannot impede the natural process of fertility. God’s tells Adam and Eve to “go forth and multiply.” He didn’t say, “go forth and satisfy yourself to whatever personal and spiritual cost, even if it means preventing babies resulting from your sexual acts.”

Our fertility is part of our inherent self. When a husband puts on a condom and enters his wife, he’s saying…“I don’t love you enough to share my entire self with you.” His fertility is being kept from his wife.

A husband and wife become ONE IN CHRIST when they experience love-making for the sacramental it is. We cannot let anything artificial or selfish come between spouses.

 

[felra]

iGrace:

In reading more about NFP and HV regarding abstaining during fertile times it is hard to believe that God is asking us to not satisfy each other in any other way. Does sperm have to be deposited inside the woman all the time every time? What about when a woman is infertile, menstrating or post-menapause. What is the point of following the HV rules then?

To be just as blunt, mutual masturbation between married couples is not a licit form of marital sexual expression. This is because it omits the possibility of procreation if intently done for the sole purpose of achieving sexual climax.

What is legitimate are other non-genital ways of conveying affection during periods of abstinence from the marital act.

 

[johnnyjoe]

iGrace:

In reading more about NFP and HV regarding abstaining during fertile times it is hard to believe that God is asking us to not satisfy each other in any other way. Does sperm have to be deposited inside the woman all the time every time?

Yes. That is, the intention for the man is to deposit his sperm only in his wife. Any other place is a misuse of a man’s fertility. The instances where emission occurs because a man cannot fully possess the control he should for whatever reason, is correct if the intention of the process was “honorable”, but as was said, God does read the heart…just as he did with Onan.

iGrace:

What about when a woman is infertile, menstrating or post-menapause. What is the point of following the HV rules then?

If that woman’s infertility is naturally derived, then of course all acts of intercourse carry the full Unitive meaning, and the procreative capacity is in the hands of God. I am sure Abraham’s relations with Sarah were just as unifying for them before God granted them the grace of becoming parents. If a woman sterilizes herself, say via surgery, then the marital act can regain its full meaning only with contrition and a valid confession with absolution.

As far as the “HV rules” goes…there are no “rules” in Humanae Vitae, for we are all ruled by our conscience and our free will exerted in this plane of existance. Humanae Vitae was published to help us rightly form our consciences, and as such brings to our awareness important truths regarding the marital embrace. I did not come to a full understanding of Humanae Vitae overnight, and I don’t exect you to either. We are called to pray, study, and discern; taking full possession for our sexuality under God’s Plan for Life. God, and the Church, is patient and eager to have us succeed in this process. Perhaps this thread can become your help in bringing you into a fuller and deeper understanding of the Church’s teachings on human sexuality. I will only add that these teachings are not punative…they ultimately free us of the slavery that is the existing cultural understanding of the meaning of human sexuality.

 

[RichT]

Princess_Abby:

As for “satisfying” one another, that is not necessarily part of the equation. We must LOVE one another. A wife is meant to be a receptacle of the love given to her by her husband. She is so moved by this love that she, in reception, returns the love. We should never be concentrated on our own pleasure during the act of love. Foreplay should be about showing our love for the other person, culminating in the marital embrace.

In “Love and Responsibility” written by the Pope before he was the Pope, he talks about how important it is for the couple to reach climax as close to each other as possible. He also mentions that this is not always possible and that a husband should take care in making sure his wife is satisfied even if it means using other methods of stimulation. Orgasm is a part of our sexuality. It serves the major purpose of procreation in regards to the man, but not in women. It does, however, serve the major purpose of sexual pleasure for both. Afterall, if sex were not pleasureable, why would we do it? God gave us the orgasm for a reason. It is not selfish to consider what the Pope has said and to make sure that the woman is also satisfied in that way. In fact, it is important because it contributes to the selfless act of the marital embrace between a husband and wife. Sex is not just for procreation. Afterall, if it were, then NFP would be irrelevant. God just says that sex should always be open to procreation. This attention to the wife is not about selfish pleasure or about focusing on our own pleasure. It is about giving to the other person.

Granted, my wife receives me during the marital embrace, but I’m sorry, I would really have a hard time looking at my wife as simply a “Receptacle”.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Here are some quotes from our Holy Father when he was but a young man…

From Love & Responsibility:

We have defined love as an ambition to ensure the true good of another
person, and consequently as the antithesis of egoism. Since in marriage
a man and a woman are associated sexually as well as in other respects
the good must be sought in this area too. From the point of view of
another person, from the altruistic standpoint, it is necessary to
insist that intercourse must not serve merely as a means of allowing
sexual excitement to reach its climax in one of the partners, i.e. the
man alone, but that climax must be reached in harmony, not at the
expense of one partner, but with both partners fully involved. (p. 272)

Sexologists state that the curve in arousal in woman is different from
that in man — it rises more slowly and falls more slowly. (p. 272)

The man must take this difference between male and female reactions
into account, not for hedonistic, but for altruistic reasons. (p. 272)

There exists a rhythm dictated by nature itself which both spouses must
discover so that climax may be reached both by the man and by the
woman, and as far as possible occur in both simultaneously. (p. 272)

Non-observance of these teachings of sexology in the marital
relationship is contrary to the good of the other partner to the
marriage and the durability and cohesion of the marriage itself. (p.
273)

There is a need for harmonization, which is impossible without good
will, especially on the part of the man, who must carefully observe the
reactions of the woman. If a woman does not obtain natural
gratification from the sexual act there is a danger that her experience
of it will be qualitatively inferior, will not involve her fully as a
person. (p. 273)

A woman finds it very difficult to forgive a man if she derives no
satisfaction from intercourse. (p. 273-4)

The natural kindness of a woman who (so the sexologists tell us)
sometimes “shams orgasm” to satisfy a man’s pride, may also be
unhelpful in the long run. (p. 274)

There is here a real need for sexual education, and it must be a
continuous process. The main objective of this education is to create
the conviction that “the other person is more important than I.” (p.
274)

 

[chimakuni]

The question that was not answered was the menopausal wife and her husband. Naturally, they can have full relations…if…there are no impediments, as in physical problems on either or both sides, i.e. penile dysfunction or vaginal dryness.

Now, here is another question…is Viagra (or similar products) permitted? If God has taken away the ability for the husband to have an erection, should the partners use this method?

This goes for the wife, too, as there are drugs out there that are said to enhance the woman’s libido.

Since God is the one that designed our bodies and made women to become infertile at a certain point and with that, many women loose their sex drive, then, why is man doing his best to keep us “forever sexual”?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated…

 

[RichT]

johnnyjoe:

Here are some quotes from our Holy Father when he was but a young man…

From Love & Responsibility:

We have defined love as an ambition to ensure the true good of another
person, and consequently as the antithesis of egoism. Since in marriage
a man and a woman are associated sexually as well as in other respects
the good must be sought in this area too. From the point of view of
another person, from the altruistic standpoint, it is necessary to
insist that intercourse must not serve merely as a means of allowing
sexual excitement to reach its climax in one of the partners, i.e. the
man alone, but that climax must be reached in harmony, not at the
expense of one partner, but with both partners fully involved. (p. 272) etc…

I was surprised at this book when I first read it. Being a fairly new Catholic I had always heard about the guilt layed on people in the past regarding sex. I was very pleased to see the Holy Father as a person who really cared about what went on between a husband and wife.

 

[RichT]

chimakuni:

The question that was not answered was the menopausal wife and her husband. Naturally, they can have full relations…if…there are no impediments, as in physical problems on either or both sides, i.e. penile dysfunction or vaginal dryness.

Now, here is another question…is Viagra (or similar products) permitted? If God has taken away the ability for the husband to have an erection, should the partners use this method?

This goes for the wife, too, as there are drugs out there that are said to enhance the woman’s libido.

Since God is the one that designed our bodies and made women to become infertile at a certain point and with that, many women loose their sex drive, then, why is man doing his best to keep us “forever sexual”?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated…

I believe the church allows for such drugs because the purpose of the drugs are to make the sexual embrace possible again for those who otherwise couldn’t. The Theology of the Body promotes the sexual embrace as an important part of marriage, so if these drugs can help to re-establish it, then they are okay.

 

[johnnyjoe]

chimakuni:

The question that was not answered was the menopausal wife and her husband. Naturally, they can have full relations…if…there are no impediments, as in physical problems on either or both sides, i.e. penile dysfunction or vaginal dryness.

Now, here is another question…is Viagra (or similar products) permitted? If God has taken away the ability for the husband to have an erection, should the partners use this method?

This goes for the wife, too, as there are drugs out there that are said to enhance the woman’s libido.

Since God is the one that designed our bodies and made women to become infertile at a certain point and with that, many women loose their sex drive, then, why is man doing his best to keep us “forever sexual”?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated…

I cannot speak for the Church on the specifics, but let me say that given the logic implied, any aid in intercourse would be illict. As a for instance, vaginal lubricants are very important to post-menopausal women. Since these products do not effect the procreative issue, they are not contra-ceptive, then of course the Church would allow them since their use clearly enhances the marital embrace.

The penal dysfunction issue, with the attendent surgery, would seem to me to be more problematic, but I cannot really say myself either way. Now the Viagra question…since I am not entirely certain how effective this product is, and its medical necessity, I leave it open to discernment. On the surface, however, it doesn’t seem to effect the “procreative” aspect of the marital embrace adversely either.

 

[chimakuni]

johnnyjoe - do you mean “any aid to intercourse would be licit” instead of illicit?

 

[Ghosty]

As for “satisfying” one another, that is not necessarily part of the equation. We must LOVE one another. A wife is meant to be a receptacle of the love given to her by her husband.

I haven’t read the rest of the thread after this post, because this blew me away. The Church has taught, and the Pope has himself written, that mutual pleasure is not only encouraged, but is absolutely part of the “goal” of sexual intercourse. Obviously it won’t always happen, but it certainly must be part of the intent. Orgasms are a very natural and healthy part of intercourse, built right into the human design by God. God didn’t put them there for no reason, He knew what He was doing!

Incidently, there was a time before modern medical studies when people believed that the female orgasm was necessary, or at least fairly important, to the process of conception. When seeking advice for conception difficulties, it could be asked if both people were having orgasms.

This has actually been backed up by internal video studies of the female body during an orgasm; it seems that the muscle contractions thrust the cervix down into the area where sperm would be after the male ejaculates. The female orgasm actually DOES aid in conception! God definately had a plan in mind with all of this.

 

[Princess_Abby]

Kids, Kids, Kids! When did I ever say that an orgasm was bad, illicit or unnecessary? My ONLY point is that selfish pleasure should NEVER be the goal. We are called to love one another and focus our entire effort on the OTHER person. If a wife is a receptacle of her husband’s love, then of COURSE she’s busily receiving his ‘efforts’ to bring her joy and make her feel loved. Sexual intercourse between spouses is the TOTALITY of self-giving…and we can’t give our entire selves away if we are a)inhibiting our fertility or b) focused on our selfish want of “satisfaction.” Instead, if we are utterly focused on our spouse, he/she will more than likely have an orgasm in the process of showing our love to them.

I just think the word “satisfaction” has no place whatsoever in the marital embrace. We aren’t customers to be “satisfied.”

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

The idea that sperm must be deposited in the vagina came from an idea that sperm were little babies. It did not occure to people in the dark ages women had an egg which needed to be fertilized.

 

[1ke]

iGrace:

In reading more about NFP and HV regarding abstaining during fertile times it is hard to believe that God is asking us to not satisfy each other in any other way. Does sperm have to be deposited inside the woman all the time every time? What about when a woman is infertile, menstrating or post-menapause. What is the point of following the HV rules then?

Yes, every act must be a completed act of intercourse.

When a woman is infertile, the act is still objectively procreative. Any act that is not a completed act of intercourse is objectively contraceptive, and is intrinsically disordered.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Lilyofthevalley:

The idea that sperm must be deposited in the vagina came from an idea that sperm were little babies. It did not occure to people in the dark ages women had an egg which needed to be fertilized.

That is incorrect - that is, the “idea that sperm must be deposited in the vagina” did not come from the notion that the man supplied all things to the woman…little babies, if you will. The heart of the teaching comes from both the scriptural “one flesh union” spoken to in scripture in the book of Genesis, and the Sin of Onan, also from Genesis. In the Onan account, Onan “goes into Tamar” and purposely withdraws and “spills his seed onto the ground”. For that act, Onan was struck down by God.

The teaching has nothing to do with the “dark ages”, which is a phrase that has always been used to imply that it was an age without knowledge. An assumption that is at its base, mildly anti-catholic since the main source and perpetuation of collected knowledge at that time was indeed the Church. The general understanding was that man provided some kind of “seed”, as is described in the Onan account, and the the woman was the proper “field” for that seed. Thus “wasting” the seed was seen as a great sin, but not particularly the killing of little babies.

 

[carrieloon]

How can the marital act be procreative in nature when the woman is menopausal? I am not arguing, I just don’t understand this point.

Also if a woman is pregnant, what is the problem with a sex act that does not include intercourse? Isn’t she as open to life as she can possibly be?!
Thanks for your help.

 

[RichT]

carrieloon:

How can the marital act be procreative in nature when the woman is menopausal? I am not arguing, I just don’t understand this point.

Also if a woman is pregnant, what is the problem with a sex act that does not include intercourse? Isn’t she as open to life as she can possibly be?!
Thanks for your help.

Neither of these scenarios have anything to do with procreation. They still have everything to do with completely giving oneself to the other. By practicing other types of sexual activity that result in a man’s climax outside of where it belongs, they become selfish acts meant only for self pleasure. They are no longer a mutual giving of each other. Sex becomes a purely physical act which is not condusive of what the marital embrace was meant to be.