BOb Sungenis, Jimmy Akin, and two articles

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DeFide:
Can you be specific on who has been unfairly “muck-raking”?
What does fairness have to do with it?
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DeFide:
Give names and statements.
Not that it would devastate my life, but, why do you want me banned? Let me repeat myself, I do not enjoy bickering Catholics. So why should I revisit that scene? If you doubt what I said and if you feel the need to know, then you just may need to stumble upon it yourself. As I stated earlier, they generously proclaim the other guy’s sliver.
 
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Stevereeno:
What does fairness have to do with it?

Not that it would devastate my life, but, why do you want me banned? Let me repeat myself, I do not enjoy bickering Catholics. So why should I revisit that scene? If you doubt what I said and if you feel the need to know, then you just may need to stumble upon it yourself. As I stated earlier, they generously proclaim the other guy’s sliver.
I’m not trying to get you banned, I’m just trying to figure out what you’re referring to. And fairness does matter. That’s why I’m trying to get you to define “muck-raking”. If you’re going to make derogatory remarks about apologists in general, people have the right to know what exactly they’re being accused of.

If you don’t think this board is the appropriate venue, (which I understand) then be consistent and address the person or persons privately.
 
excellent point defides—he really shouldbe specific or not make those comments–but again—can we get a response from keating or akin about suegenis’s literal creation story —and the head coverings—or if they have already dne so direct me to that
 
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marineboy:
excellent point defides—he really shouldbe specific or not make those comments–but again—can we get a response from keating or akin about suegenis’s literal creation story —and the head coverings—or if they have already dne so direct me to that
Just a question…

Why?

We know what the Church teaches in these matters. Why do we need Catholic Answers’ Apologists to repond to an apologist that seems to say things that are the opposite of what the Church says?
 
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DeFide:
And fairness does matter. That’s why I’m trying to get you to define “muck-raking”.
Fine. I will talk about the one statement on this thread made by an “apologist” regarding another “apologist”.
Karl Keating:
Sungenis has not been blackballed, but over the last few years he has marginalized himself by… sloppy argumentation (such as using as supports for one of his stances some quotations from Nazi propagandists).
Here we see Mr. Keating stating that Mr. Sungenis has used “some quotations from Nazi propagandists”, as though Sungenis’ stance was grounded on the work of many different nazis. If you would take the time to research this particular subject, you would instead learn that he ACCIDENTALLY used ONE quotation from ONE nazi. You would also learn that the original source used by the nazi was the Detroit Jewish Chronicle.

Now, please believe me. I am not defending the original Sungenis document; I have not even read it. But you are pressing me on the issue of muck-raking and this, my friends, is an example of it. Again, fairness is irrelevant.
 
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marineboy:
well i think you may have missed sungenis’s argument–he claims that the new ode could not have abergated this law becaue the custom was well over 100 years. and the new law didnt specifically outlaw this law but made a general statment about the old code.
The custom of giving Holy Communion to infants was over 1200 years old before it was proscribed by canon law in the Latin Rite. So I don’t see the “old custom” argument as very compelling. Even before the custom was postively abrogated by canon law (something that has not happened to the custom of head coverings), St. Pius X asserts that the ancient custom of giving Holy Communion to infants and children fell into disuse. As such, customs, even very ancient ones are not necessarily binding.
 
Steve, how many apologetics books have you written and published? How many of the world’s largest Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization websites do you operate? How many apologetics radio shows do you appear on. The difference between you and Mr. Keating is that you have no credibility.
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Stevereeno:
Fine. I will talk about the one statement on this thread made by an “apologist” regarding another “apologist”.

Here we see Mr. Keating stating that Mr. Sungenis has used “some quotations from Nazi propagandists”, as though Sungenis’ stance was grounded on the work of many different nazis. If you would take the time to research this particular subject, you would instead learn that he ACCIDENTALLY used ONE quotation from ONE nazi. You would also learn that the original source used by the nazi was the Detroit Jewish Chronicle.

Now, please believe me. I am not defending the original Sungenis document; I have not even read it. But you are pressing me on the issue of muck-raking and this, my friends, is an example of it. Again, fairness is irrelevant.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Steve, how many apologetics books have you written and published? How many of the world’s largest Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization websites do you operate? How many apologetics radio shows do you appear on. The difference between you and Mr. Keating is that you have no credibility.
You forgot to ask me how many times I have been married, or how many children I have brought into this world, or how my co-workers regard me.

Ban away!
 
From Pope St. Pius X, Quam Singulari (1910)
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10quam.htm
The Catholic Church, bearing this in mind, took care even from the beginning to bring the little ones to Christ through Eucharistic Communion, which was administered even to nursing infants. … done at Baptism until the thirteenth century …

This practice*** later died out in the Latin Church***, and children were not permitted to approach the Holy Table until they had come to the use of reason and had some knowledge of this august Sacrament. This new practice, already accepted by certain local councils, was solemnly confirmed by the Fourth Council of the Lateran, in 1215 …
Now, compare the following thesis to the instance above: Head coverings for women is an ancient custom, and as such, is binding upon all the faithful and cannot be abrogated by canon law.

If the above thesis were true, how could a custom that has its origins “from the beginning” until the “thirteenth century” have “later died out” and have been proscribed by the Church. Such is described by St. Pius X as a “new practice.” It seems the traditionalist thesis doesn’t square with the above ancient custom, does it?

Seems to me the custom of wearing head coverings is a matter of discipline, which also can be described as one that has “later died out,” just like giving Holy Communion to infants. Such ancient disciplinary customs are obviously not forever binding nor are they immune from becoming abrogated by canon law.
 
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Stevereeno:
You forgot to ask me how many times I have been married, or how many children I have brought into this world, or how my co-workers regard me.

Ban away!
What does your famililial arrangement have to do with your apologetic accumen? All I said is that Karl Keating is leader in the world of lay apologetics. As far as I know, unless you are Scott Hahn or Patrick Madrid incognito, you are not. Mr Keatings manifest desire to express his apologetics in the public forum, and his obvious skill (you do have to have some to be published) gives him a level a credibility that you unfortunately do not.

P.S. I can’t ban anyone.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
What does your famililial arrangement have to do with your apologetic accumen?
Apparently, nothing at all. Which is the point I was trying to make.
 
dont care what anyone’s credentialS are i want to hear their arguments-----perhaps someone can be Suengenis’s arguments rebutting JImmy akin on head covering and then reute exactly what suengenis is saying—i dont know how to move sunegenis’ article over here
 
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marineboy:
dont care what anyone’s credentialS are i want to hear their arguments-----perhaps someone can be Suengenis’s arguments rebutting JImmy akin on head covering and then reute exactly what suengenis is saying—i dont know how to move sunegenis’ article over here
If you don’t care what anyone’s credentials are then many we can just invite Jack Chick or Bart Brewster over here to answer questions.
 
Scotty take a chill pill—what I meant was that someone 's credentials doesnt necessarily mean their arguments are valid…and if jack chick and bart brewer, hypotheticaly, were to assume the role of a catholic and answer questions correctly the answers would be just that correct --truth is independent of credentiasl and the instrument that produces or conveys the truth–remember scotty i am here to help you --i will be happy to pont out any other illogical statement you make in the future–God Bless
 
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marineboy:
Scotty take a chill pill—what I meant was that someone 's credentials doesnt necessarily mean their arguments are valid…and if jack chick and bart brewer, hypotheticaly, were to assume the role of a catholic and answer questions correctly the answers would be just that correct --truth is independent of credentiasl and the instrument that produces or conveys the truth–remember scotty i am here to help you --i will be happy to pont out any other illogical statement you make in the future–God Bless
The simple point I was trying to make about credibility is that Stevereeno was essentially attacking Karl Keating over one simple sentence. Karl is a well-published author and Catholic Apologist, and the founder of this friggin’ site, for cryin’ out loud. I would think that people might try to show him a little more respect than demand that he make a public reconning for a sentence that is quickly appearing to be taken out of context. BTW, are you still Corps? I was a FMSS Hospital Corpsman for 15 years.
 
well Karl, just like anyone else, needs to be careful in what he says–I am not saying the other guy is right but just because Karl is Karl doesnt mean he cant be taken to task on something–you give the impression that you “kiss Karl’s butt.” NO offense–
 
marineboy,

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith has stated with regard to head coverings:

INTER INSIGNIORES
*****Declaration on the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood (15 October 1976)*Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor 11:2-6); such requirements no longer have a normative value.
While it is not proscribed by the Church, it is no longer obligatory (ie. a norm of the Church).
 
The R. Sungenis article can be read here:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/covering.htm

In it, Mr. Sungenis makes the following assertion:
if a custom has been practiced for 100 years, then even a canon of the 1983 code which specifically mandates that head coverings are not to be worn, cannot usurp the previous custom! (Of course, there is no such law in the 1983 code…)
This doesn’t square with what I’ve posted in #29 above. The ancient custom of giving Holy Communion to infants was 1200 years old. It fell into disuse. Then it became proscribed by canon law.

Now, head coverings is “no longer normative” according to the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. It is not proscribed by canon law, however. This means that this ancient custom, like giving Holy Communion to infants, is no longer normative custom of the Church. It is not binding, but allowed.
 
According to the *New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, *Study Edition, John P. Beal, et. al, Ed., Paulist Press, NY, 2000, pg. 91-92:
The observance of a custom is interrupted (i.e., not continuous), if: (1) the majority of the community ceases to observe it for a time, (2) the custom is continously observed but for a time the community does not consider it normative (c. 25), or (3) the custom is expressly disapproved by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.
It seems the custom, “for a time” was not considered normative" (cf. CDF, INTER INSIGNIORES,1976). So (2) above seems to apply. Moreover, (1) seems to apply, as the majority of the community have ceased to observe the custom for a time. Thus, the custom cannot be said to be “continous” with respect to canon 26 of the Code of Canon Law. Thus, the custom is no longer a legal custom but is now merely an optional practice.
 
In fact, I think it is more accurate to state that when the 1917 Code made the legal custom a law, it ceased to be a legal custom. “A legal custom is not a law” (Beale, et. al, ibid., pg. 87). When the CDF asserted in 1976 that head coverings were no longer normative (i.e., binding) then it ceased to be either binding law or binding custom, but merely an optional practice. If a doubtful law is no longer binding, the certainly a doubtful custom is no longer binding either.
 
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