Bongo drums, modern songs, and waving hands

[stringbeanduck]

I believe there is a place for both

I can sorta reason with you. Does the modern songs and have to be done have to be done at mass. What about having a Faith Night. Where people who chose to can come and listen to Jesus rock bands and such. My question is why does it have to be done at mass. If I were you I would think that would be great.

Come Friday night for Faith Night and then come Sunday for the Traditional mass.

 

[agapewolf]

here’s a scenario.

I’m at a steubenville youth conference with 2000 high school teens. We are singing fast/slow/medium praise and worship songs. The teens are singing their heart out, there are drums, the drums set up the chorus to make people want to belt even louder.

Now we go into Mass…put all the instruments down, yank out an organ and do chant.

I’m sorry, but NO. what a terriblemessage. This is THEIR prayer…this is the teens reverence… this is how they pray with that music. they are their own culture (Said so by JPII).

THis is a completely valid way to celebrate Mass. Should be doine with boundaries of course…save the fast song for the end…do slower meditative tunes during commuinion., but its works.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

What happened to the ringing of the bells during communion and older songs derived from latten? I ask you all to keep these traditions alive in our troubled world. Do any of you notice tradition fading in your area?

It is true that changing the worship style can actually change a person’s or group of people’s view of their faith, generally speaking. But there’s more to it than just music, certain instruments, and half elbow raises vs. fully waving hands.

It is important to remember that we did not always have many of those songs that we love to sing, rather in Latin or in English or whatever language. We didn’t always have big pipe organs or a St. Gregory to bring Gregorian Chant into the world.

Those type traditions are kept alive in many parishes. There’s bunches of them through the country.

But what we take for granted for Catholic worship here in America is not necessarily universal/Catholic worldwide. Your preferences here in America may not be appropriate for all nationalities of Catholic people world over.

 

[rlg94086]

here’s a scenario.

I’m at a steubenville youth conference with 2000 high school teens. We are singing fast/slow/medium praise and worship songs. The teens are singing their heart out, there are drums, the drums set up the chorus to make people want to belt even louder.

Now we go into Mass…put all the instruments down, yank out an organ and do chant.

I’m sorry, but NO. what a terriblemessage. This is THEIR prayer…this is the teens reverence… this is how they pray with that music. they are their own culture (Said so by JPII).

THis is a completely valid way to celebrate Mass. Should be doine with boundaries of course…save the fast song for the end…do slower meditative tunes during commuinion., but its works.

So, are you in favor of this?:
agnusdaily.com/life-teen-mass-branches-into-new-arenas/

Pastor Charles Frederick, a 20-year Roman Catholic Priest, has leveraged off the Life Teen ™ success and has spawned alternate teen-focused masses that are targeted to the various segments of musical taste. “There are so many other parishioners that feel alienated because of the music of Life Teen ™,” said Pastor Frederick, “Because of that, we’ve develop three new youth segments; ‘Funk Teen’, ‘Rap Teen’, and ‘Death Teen’.”
…
Pastor Frederick has also come under fire for his Death Teen segment. “The common misconception about the organization is that it is anti-life, but that’s not the case,” exhorted the pastor, “Death Teen is about the outreach to those youths who are in the dark grip of Death Metal. Yes, we do sometimes include mosh pits during the mass, and the music primarily consists of growling and the double bass drum, but there is always a sense of reverence and awe. Many teens fall on there face in front of our lord as St. John did, and rise only when the are assisted onto a stretcher.” The pastor insisted that pain and suffering is an integral part of Catholic spirituality.

Why?

If not, why not? They are different cultures right?

 

[agapewolf]

this is an unfortunate group that is using the “lifeteen” name to do bizarre things.

this is not wha tlifeteen is about, nor would they approve.

Look, I didn’t originally say the teens are their own culture. JPII did!!! take it up with the vatican.

so many people here think they are more catholic than the pope.

there are boundaries to it, Lifeteen abides by that. In fact, that is one of the biggest things they teach at a conference…is to obey the Bishop.

as I said before, we have one of the most conservative orthodox bishops and he likes it. has given his approval.

I suggest attending a training conference yourself, calling the Lifeteen office yourself and asking them the questions about this.

 

[agapewolf]

thats a really bizarre web site actually, I don’t think I believe the things it is “reporting”

 

[rlg94086]

But, I don’t understand. It sounds to me like Fr. Frederick is doing the same thing that you advocate. Why is the music of LifeTeen the only acceptable music. Rap, Funk and Death Metal cultures do exist, and those teens probably wouldn’t like the music you play at your Mass.

If you are going to make an argument for your particular brand of music, I don’t think you are being consistent. Don’t try to hide behind the Pope and accuse me of being holier-than-thou. Support your argument.

this is an unfortunate group that is using the “lifeteen” name to do bizarre things.

this is not wha tlifeteen is about, nor would they approve.

Look, I didn’t originally say the teens are their own culture. JPII did!!! take it up with the vatican.

so many people here think they are more catholic than the pope.

there are boundaries to it, Lifeteen abides by that. In fact, that is one of the biggest things they teach at a conference…is to obey the Bishop.

as I said before, we have one of the most conservative orthodox bishops and he likes it. has given his approval.

I suggest attending a training conference yourself, calling the Lifeteen office yourself and asking them the questions about this.

 

[rlg94086]

thats a really bizarre web site actually, I don’t think I believe the things it is “reporting”

Yep. It’s a satirical newspaper. Fished in!

 

[agapewolf]

then I don’t think it deserves to be used to support your point.

No, death metal is NOT a seperate culture. Teenagers are.

a genre of music is not a culture.

and I never EVER said that Lifeteen is the only music . If you read my past posts, as you have responded to them …you will see that I say BOTH are valid

 

[agapewolf]

I won’t continue a conversation about a subject that I am very passionate about with someone who plays such jokes.

 

[rlg94086]

then I don’t think it deserves to be used to support your point.

No, death metal is NOT a seperate culture. Teenagers are.

a genre of music is not a culture.

and I never EVER said that Lifeteen is the only music . If you read my past posts, as you have responded to them …you will see that I say BOTH are valid

I’m sorry, but you and I guess Pope John Paul II, if that’s what he said, are wrong. Teenagers are not a monolithic culture. But, if you are saying that rap music, death metal and funk would be okay at a LifeTeen Mass, then I guess you are consistent.

 

[rlg94086]

I won’t continue a conversation about a subject that I am very passionate about with someone who plays such jokes.

I didn’t play a joke. I didn’t realize it was a satirical site. I was “fished in”…thus the blushing smiley.

 

[agapewolf]

I am NOT saying that…nowhere have I said that it would be ok.

JPII said that teenagers are their own seperate culture. Just look at them. its obvious

 

[agapewolf]

I didn’t play a joke. I didn’t realize it was a satirical site. I was “fished in”…thus the blushing smiley.

I misunderstood…my apologies.

 

[rlg94086]

I am NOT saying that…nowhere have I said that it would be ok.

JPII said that teenagers are their own seperate culture. Just look at them. its obvious

Teenagers have as many different sub-cultures as adults do. They are not a monolithic culture. It is a false notion.

BTW…since you are talking about teen culture, when do they grow up and become adults? According to you, the LifeTeen Mass is for all ages. If teens grow up, shouldn’t their culture change?

 

[agapewolf]

again, its NOT according to me… the whole premise of a youth Mass is supported and encouraged by the vatican as a means of ministering to youth.

Part of LifeTeen youth ministry is about evangelizing, and teaching the faith. Helping teens grow up and be adults in the faith.the idea of a quality passionately prayed Mass that teens see that they belong and are legitimate participants because the Mass is the source and summit of the faith is a perfectly valid and true means to evangelizing all sorts.

 

[Cat]

agapewolf, I appreciate everything you say.

Why don’t we just give it up? I think these people have made up their minds. They are convinced that the Bishops who approve Life Teen masses are heretical (even though OUR Bishop also established a TLM years ago in our city–was he heretical when he did that?!).

They are convinced that any song that wasn’t written in teh 5th Century is heretical and inappropriate, in spite of the Vatican’s teaching to the contrary, and the endorsement of such music by the Pope himself at such events as World Youth Conference.

They are convinced that any instrument except an organ is irreverent in Mass, again, even though the Vatican says otherwise.

I have a suggestion for all of you who believe that contemporary Mass and music is heretical. Write my Bishop and ask him. Here’s the website of our diocese:

rockforddiocese.org/bishop/Default.htm

Read through it, and then go ahead. Write him and say some of the things that you have stated on this thread. And then come back to this forum and tell us what he said to you.

Get your teaching from the Apostles, not from your own interpretation of church writings.

Once again, I will reiterate that I fully support anyone who wants to worship in a traditional Mass with ancient music. What I won’t go along with is the teaching that contemporary Masses and music are heretical. To me, this is an insult to the Vatican.

 

[rlg94086]

Nice hyperbole, Cat. Everyone on the thread who said that bishops, contemporary music and instruments other than organs are heretical (that would be no one) should take your advice.

agapewolf, I appreciate everything you say.

Why don’t we just give it up? I think these people have made up their minds. They are convinced that the Bishops who approve Life Teen masses are heretical (even though OUR Bishop also established a TLM years ago in our city–was he heretical when he did that?!).

They are convinced that any song that wasn’t written in teh 5th Century is heretical and inappropriate, in spite of the Vatican’s teaching to the contrary, and the endorsement of such music by the Pope himself at such events as World Youth Conference.

They are convinced that any instrument except an organ is irreverent in Mass, again, even though the Vatican says otherwise.

I have a suggestion for all of you who believe that contemporary Mass and music is heretical. Write my Bishop and ask him. Here’s the website of our diocese:

rockforddiocese.org/bishop/Default.htm

Read through it, and then go ahead. Write him and say some of the things that you have stated on this thread. And then come back to this forum and tell us what he said to you.

Get your teaching from the Apostles, not from your own interpretation of church writings.

Once again, I will reiterate that I fully support anyone who wants to worship in a traditional Mass with ancient music. What I won’t go along with is the teaching that contemporary Masses and music are heretical. To me, this is an insult to the Vatican.

 

[patrick1945]

This is an interesting thread. I’m an “old guy” who was brought up in the Latin tradition, sang in the plain chant choir in my seminary days and still listen to Gregorian chant at times. That kind of worship/music “moves” me…it puts me in a more reverential frame of mind. When “folk Masses” became the rage after Vatican II, I simply hated them.

Having said all of that, however, the structure and purpose of Mass (the celebration of the Eucharist) remain intact. Isn’t this the real meaning of “tradition” in the Catholic sense? So, if bongos, hand waving, etc. help to bring a person closer to God, doesn’t that serve a positive purpose? Now, I don’t like that kind of thing at Mass, but I’m not there to be entertained. If I have to work a bit harder to maintain my focus on the real meaning/purpose of the Mass, so be it. If, on the other hand, the “new” forms of worship help to bring others closer to God, then isn’t that a good thing?

 

[agapewolf]

Rlg,

The way you make such comments are demeaning to others. While your opinion is valid, there is a touch of sarcasm in you that tries to invalidate someone else’s opinion right off.

Cat was not exaggerating, the idea of a contemporary mass has been compared to pagan worship on this thread.

This is what you said:

You do realize that Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice, right? That makes it a solemn event, not a happy clappy event. I’m all for joyful music, but I don’t think music you clap along to is appropriate during Christ’s sacrifice.

This is the primary difference between Catholics and Protestants. The Protestants focus nearly 100% on the “risen Lord” in their services. There is nothing wrong with that, but it isn’t the Sacrament Jesus instituted at the Last Supper. I don’t care how someone interprets the Gospel readings,** they weren’t singing and dancing at the Last Supper. **

First point, is actually, if you listen to Scott Hahn’s “The 4th Cup” you will see that the meal they had had the last supper had 4 courses. In between the courses, they would give thanks, or they would sing a song.Its not an interpretation, but its actually stated in Matthew 26: 30. They went out to sing a hymn. That was one of the courses of the meal.

Our church puts in the rubrics for us to have music at Mass, for there to be singing at Mass. Music has an amazing ability to move people, we are emotional people, and we can let that come about to praise God at the source and summit of our faith.

And again, I will say that this is also the resurrection of Christ.

I’m not saying this to the detriment or to invalidate the traditional music/ masses. As I said before, those are very good and beautiful and uphold our tradition. But lets remember, even that music was “pop” music at that time. Just because something is written in 2007 doesn’t make it inappropriate for Mass.

My point is that contemporary is not an invalid way to celebrate Mass.