Bongo drums, modern songs, and waving hands

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I’ll try to say this without sounding rude. I think it is wrong of some of you to imply that modern Masses, or Masses like Life Teen are not reverent or liturgically correct, and that the teenagers and others who participate are not as “holy” or “Catholic” as you are.
Do tell.

websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=2074267
Some of you imply that most teenagers are more interested in traditional Mass rather than modern Mass.
Our city has had a TLM for many years, offered twice on Sundays, and every weekday. There are teenagers that attend with their families. But the vast majority of teenagers don’t seem very interested in TLM.
Well, heavens, no. From the way some of those girls are dressed, if I was a sixteen-year old boy, I wouldn’t be interested in a TLM, either.
The Life Teen Mass is liturgically correct, too.
It attracts a huge crowd, including hundreds of teenagers and a lot of parents and grandparents. If you come late to Life Teen, you’ll have to stand at the back of the sanctuary.
Rock concerts will do that.
What I won’t go along with is the teaching that contemporary Masses and music are heretical.
Heretical? Probably not. Scandalous? Yes. In low taste? Absolutely. As evidenced in the link above, an occasion of sin? You bet your life. But probably not heretical.
 
Rlg,

The way you make such comments are demeaning to others. While your opinion is valid, there is a touch of sarcasm in you that tries to invalidate someone else’s opinion right off.
Yes. I use sarcasm to get my point across. I’m sorry you find it demeaning, but I am not trying to “invalidate someone else’s opinion.” That is an assumption on your part.
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agapewolf:
Cat was not exaggerating, the idea of a contemporary mass has been compared to pagan worship on this thread.
Where? I must have missed it.
First point, is actually, if you listen to Scott Hahn’s “The 4th Cup” you will see that the meal they had had the last supper had 4 courses. In between the courses, they would give thanks, or they would sing a song.Its not an interpretation, but its actually stated in Matthew 26: 30. They went out to sing a hymn. That was one of the courses of the meal.
Yes. When you are having a passover meal, hymns are sung. All of our Masses have hymns. What sort of hymns do you think they sang? Are you saying they went out and partied with the “teen culture?”
Our church puts in the rubrics for us to have music at Mass, for there to be singing at Mass. Music has an amazing ability to move people, we are emotional people, and we can let that come about** to praise God** at the source and summit of our faith.
This is the crux of the matter. The important part is praising God…not moving people. While many people find Gregorian Chant moving, that is not the reason it holds “pride of place” in the liturgy - it is because it is “proper to the Roman Liturgy.” (GIRM)
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agapewolf:
And again, I will say that this is also the resurrection of Christ.
My understanding is that the Mass is not the resurrection of Christ. It is the sacrificial offering of ourselves and the celebrant with Christ. At the end of this sacrifice and communion, we are dismissed. If you can give me something from the Catechism, Church Fathers, etc. to back up your point, I would appreceiate it.
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agapewolf:
I’m not saying this to the detriment or to invalidate the traditional music/ masses. As I said before, those are very good and beautiful and uphold our tradition. But lets remember, even that music was “pop” music at that time. Just because something is written in 2007 doesn’t make it inappropriate for Mass.
I’m not sure your contention that Gregorian chant was “pop” music at the time is correct. I don’t think people were chanting in the street or medieval house parties. It was “pop” music briefly when the CD Chant came out (1980s? 1990s?)
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agapewolf:
My point is that contemporary is not an invalid way to celebrate Mass.
I don’t think I have said it is invalid, just inappropriate IMO. There is a distinction.
 
This is an interesting thread. I’m an “old guy” who was brought up in the Latin tradition, sang in the plain chant choir in my seminary days and still listen to Gregorian chant at times. That kind of worship/music “moves” me…it puts me in a more reverential frame of mind. When “folk Masses” became the rage after Vatican II, I simply hated them.

Having said all of that, however, the structure and purpose of Mass (the celebration of the Eucharist) remain intact. Isn’t this the real meaning of “tradition” in the Catholic sense? So, if bongos, hand waving, etc. help to bring a person closer to God, doesn’t that serve a positive purpose? Now, I don’t like that kind of thing at Mass, but I’m not there to be entertained. If I have to work a bit harder to maintain my focus on the real meaning/purpose of the Mass, so be it. If, on the other hand, the “new” forms of worship help to bring others closer to God, then isn’t that a good thing?
Hi Patrick,

Of course bringing others closer to God is a good thing, but these “new” forms of worship don’t have to take place during a Mass. As has been pointed out on this thread, there is no reason the LifeTeen group can’t meet Saturday evening (after having gone to Mass), Sunday evening (after having gone to Mass in the morning) or another night of the week. It would be a great opportunity for fellowship, great music and catechetics. Hopefully, they would be taught in these meetings, the importance and meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass.

God bless,
Robert
 
You must know that sarcasm is demeaning in the way you use it. No assumptions on my part are necessary.

If the Church backs up that this is a valid way to celebrate the Eucharist , then it IS appropriate.

LT has lifenights that do the things you suggest…teaching the faith, p/w music with prayer, etc. but it brings their culture into the Mass as well. I’m simply stating the point that the Church brings up… take it up with them.
 
You must know that sarcasm is demeaning in the way you use it. No assumptions on my part are necessary.

If the Church backs up that this is a valid way to celebrate the Eucharist , then it IS appropriate.

LT has lifenights that do the things you suggest…teaching the faith, p/w music with prayer, etc. but it brings their culture into the Mass as well. I’m simply stating the point that the Church brings up… take it up with them.
Okay, I guess you are done, since you can’t support your arguments.

Not everything that is valid is proper. And, not everything that is valid has to be accepted wholeheartedly by everyone - even if it was popular with our previous pope and some bishops.

I never said you couldn’t have a LifeTeen Mass. I never said it was invalid. I just think it isn’t proper. I’m being pushed more and more towards the traditional with every discussion I have with what my friends on this forum like to call “modernists.” Your inability to distinguish the sacred from the popular is disturbing to me.
 
I can, however, I am choosing not to. I don’t debate are argue with sarcasm or outrageous examples to prove a point that don’t actually have any connection at all, nor do I have the time to spend looking and searching for quotes to satisfy you.

You did say your contention would be to not have a teen mass. You said it multiple times.

And do not call me a modernist. I am 100% loyal and obedient to the Magisterium as well as Lifeteen.

I’m done.
 
I can, however, I am choosing not to. I don’t debate are argue with sarcasm or outrageous examples to prove a point that don’t actually have any connection at all, nor do I have the time to spend looking and searching for quotes to satisfy you.
Your choice. It’s always easier to present an argument without supporting your viewpoint, but I am satisfied with your response. 👍
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agapewolf:
You did say your contention would be to not have a teen mass. You said it multiple times.
Indeed. Does that mean I think it is invalid? Does that mean I think parishes can’t offer it? Of course not. It means that I don’t think parishes should offer it. I’m certainly not going to support something I don’t think is proper. That would be illogical.
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agapewolf:
And do not call me a modernist. I am 100% loyal and obedient to the Magisterium as well as Lifeteen.
Many “modernists” are 100% loyal and obedient to the Magisterium. I didn’t say you weren’t. I’m pretty certain that Lifeteen is a “modernist” idea. I will have to check with some “traditionalists” to verify.
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agapewolf:
I’m done.
So be it.

God bless you on your journey,
Robert
 
My feeling is that in many cases the music and lack of reverence in the Mass is making even young people crave the more Traditional. Thank you for asking us to keep the traditions alive for you. Maybe you can get others together and ask your priest to also keep the “old” traditions alive for future generations.
i’d agree. i’m 17. i’m essentially a cradle catholic. my parents converted when i was a child and i did as well soon enough. however, my mom has said without vatican II she probably never would have considered being catholic. and she was upset about the recent news about the pope bringing back the tridentine mass and even reiterating extra ecclesiam nulla salus. she said she thought it was a step backwards and i was quick to tell her how excited i was about it.

i myself have never attended a latin mass, but the prospect of it seems awesome. there is beauty in tradition and uniformity. the way church is now with folk masses and reading in english, etc. … it’s ok … but i don’t think there’s the same beauty in the presentation and especially in the music. the way mass is now seems … too protestant (forgive me if that sounds offensive). but i just want something distinctly catholic (of course we have that in the eucharist) but there’s something mysterious and overwhelming about gregorian chant and latin and incense.

nothing against the way mass is now, i just think the latin mass seems really cool from what i’ve seen and heard.
 
Okay I may be 14 but I do know what is traditional and what is not. When we moved down south the masses were different but still had tradition in them. Over the course of ten year it has quickly started to die out. Our parish now has these bongo drums modern songs, and, has just recently a few members are starting to wave their hands during songs. Al right last time I check this is not southern hills rocken mega church of Christ. I believe it is called a Roman Catholic Church. What happened to the ringing of the bells during communion and older songs derived from latten? I ask you all to keep these traditions alive in our troubled world. Do any of you notice tradition fading in your area?
Hi! I didn’t read through the entire thread, but just wanted to give you my thoughts. I was like you at 14 way back in the 1990s. ha! ha! The mass back then was much less traditional than what it is now in my neck of the woods. I didn’t know any other kind of mass, though, so although I always felt something was missing, I just thought that this was the way it was… until I attended more traditional masses while studying abroad in college. Now, it seems in my diocese, many of the parishes have been moving back to a more traditional mass, which has been a relief to me. It really depressed me for a while where the only traditional mass I could find was in a few parishes in the city. There are some parishes that are not like that, but as long as I can attend mass somewhere else, I’m fine with it. I’ve also found in my parish and in other parts of the diocese and our neighboring diocese, ever since the MP was announced, I’m seeing more younger people my age (younger I mean 20s and 30s) wanting to kneel while receiving communion and some even wearing veils, which was never the case before. It was like they were in traditionalists hiding in the closet. I consider myself more in the middle, but leaning more towards the traditionalist side. When I can, I will wear my mantilla, but since I’m a cantor, I feel it wouldn’t be right for me to wear it since it is a NO mass and it’s not required to wear one. Yet, I was torn, so I asked a young (30s), more traditional priest of whom I know what I should do and he agreed that since I am up in front of the congregation, by me wearing the mantilla would be making a statement which I do not intend to make, so it would be better for me not to wear it when in the role of cantor.

I personally believe bongo drums, strumming guitars and tambourines are kind of mediocre for mass, for a variety of reasons which I won’t go into here since I’ve discussed music before in other threads and as discussions about sacred music always hits a sensitive, personal nerve with some people. BUT this is what I’ve come to peace with: Now that in my diocese I don’t have to deal with music like that at every mass which was the case in my childhood, it doesn’t bother me so much any more.

At my home parish, they have traditional masses, guitar masses, and band masses. They used to have lots of bongos and tambourines, but a couple of years ago, a huge uproar came from the parishioners (this is a young, family-oriented parish) regarding the state of liturgical music. It came to the point where the parish took surveys from all the parishioners. So, now there is a happy medium with no bongos or tambourines. You’ve got masses with “pop”-like music and masses that have the traditional hymns ranging from centuries ago to 20th century.

But here’s the thing that some people have touched on… although sacred music can and does help in the spiritual uplifting of an individual’s soul, it shouldn’t be the main reason why someone would choose to go or not go to mass. If the youth decide that they don’t want to attend mass anymore because of the music, whether chant or folk or rock, then something was missing in their learning as a Catholic. I couldn’t stand most of the music at mass when I was a child and a teen, but it didn’t stop me from attending mass.

As I got older and became a better musician as well as became much more sensitive towards things, I would become ill or panicked when I had to attend mass with either poorly performed music or badly composed music, but I found ways to attend mass. It didn’t stop me from being Catholic.

I understand you lamenting the lost of tradition in your parish at home, but I am sure today you can find parishes which have more of the traditions that you are yearning for. No matter what, though, don’t give up on the Church even if you become disheartened or disappointed by it whether by something serious like a horriable scandal or something not as serious like having bongos at mass. It is God’s Church, pray for the people in it and get involved to help make her the best she can be. God bless! 🙂
 
it.
i myself have never attended a latin mass, but the prospect of it seems awesome. there is beauty in tradition and uniformity. the way church is now with folk masses and reading in english, etc. … it’s ok … but i don’t think there’s the same beauty in the presentation and especially in the music. the way mass is now seems … too protestant (forgive me if that sounds offensive). but i just want something distinctly catholic (of course we have that in the eucharist) but there’s something mysterious and overwhelming about gregorian chant and latin and incense.

nothing against the way mass is now, i just think the latin mass seems really cool from what i’ve seen and heard.
I wouldn’t say the Latin mass is “cool” per say, but it is extremely spiritual and beautiful if you attend in the right frame of thought. It takes me to an extreme sense of spiritual meditation. The use of polyphony or chant also aids in focusing on God. You need lots of focus, which is sometimes hard and is probably why some people don’t like the TLM mass. My first Trid mass was right after college. There was truly a mysterium that is sometimes lacking in the novos ordo - whether or not traditional music or pop-like music is being used. I do find the mysterium in NO masses as well, so I’m NOT saying that the TLM mass is better than the other.

Anyway, I’m just thankful that in my diocese the masses have become more reverent than in the past. That’s a step in the right direction.
 
The only argument I was asked to support was the idea that the Mass is also the celebration of the resurrection. WHile I know there are deeper and much more specific quotes than this, the constant referrel in the catechism to the “christian mystery” (which is the death AND resurrection) and the Mass obligation on SUNDAY…the day of the resurrection is simple enough.

My choice to not provide is not because its easier, its simply as its stated before, your style of arguing is demeaning, sarcastic, and belittling. I won’t take part.

I don’t think taking a poll of what you call “traditionalists” about what modernism is would be a legitimate poll. Just as a poll of “modernists” about traditionalism would be. (Yet another attempt to make a point by an outrageous example.)

Ask the vatican…oh yea…they don’t think its wrong.
 
Oh…not done. 🙂
The only argument I was asked to support was the idea that the Mass is also the celebration of the resurrection. WHile I know there are deeper and much more specific quotes than this, the constant referrel in the catechism to the “christian mystery” (which is the death AND resurrection) and the Mass obligation on SUNDAY…the day of the resurrection is simple enough.
Okay.
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agapewolf:
My choice to not provide is not because its easier, its simply as its stated before, your style of arguing is demeaning, sarcastic, and belittling. I won’t take part.
Except for this post. 😉
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agapewolf:
I don’t think taking a poll of what you call “traditionalists” about what modernism is would be a legitimate poll. Just as a poll of “modernists” about traditionalism would be. (Yet another attempt to make a point by an outrageous example.)
Actually, saying I would have to ask traditionalists was a joke…but I forgot to use a smiley. Sorry about that.

However, it is true that a modernist can still be 100% orthodox. You shouldn’t feel so insulted by the term…unless you don’t like modern versions of the Mass. I’m guessing you do, or you wouldn’t be defending Lifeteen.
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agapewolf:
Ask the vatican…oh yea…they don’t think its wrong.
I’ve stated and agreed multiple times that Lifeteen is valid, that it is okay for you to have a Lifeteen Mass. Why do you keep telling me to “ask the Vatican?” One more time…just because I say I don’t think parishes should offer a Lifeteen Mass doesn’t mean I don’t think they are valid. I just don’t think they are reverent.

People can show up in cut-off shorts and tank tops for Mass. Completely valid…I’m against that too, and will tell them they should dress differently. My opposition to Lifeteen is in the same spirit.
 
Apparently, you need the last word. Fine, take it.

But my vatican comments are in the spirit that the vatican encourages …yes, encourages…not just tolerates…youth masses because it is an effective way to evangelize and minsiter to young people.

Take your last word if you must.
 
rlg…

I see your point, but I wonder if it’s practical. Maybe the issue comes down to what the objective is.

If the objective is to get “kids” who already practice the Faith on a fairly consistent basis more deeply involved, then I agree with you. After-Mass meetings with more modern music, etc. might be appealing.

But, what about those who can’t “identify” with the older, more traditional Mass and its rituals? How do we draw them in? How do we get them to be, at least, part of the audience so that they’re exposed to the Message? If we don’t get them in the front door, haven’t we failed?
 
Do tell.

websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=2074267

Well, heavens, no. From the way some of those girls are dressed, if I was a sixteen-year old boy, I wouldn’t be interested in a TLM, either.

Rock concerts will do that.

Heretical? Probably not. Scandalous? Yes. In low taste? Absolutely. As evidenced in the link above, an occasion of sin? You bet your life. But probably not heretical.
Just looked at the link you provided; how sad. We are not teaching THESE young people reverence. I think it’s New Oxford Review that has an article online today about statistics from different age groups. They would tally with the visual evidence shown in your link.
 
Hi Patrick,

You invite them to the after-Mass event first. Believe it or not, I’m drawing from my conversion experience for this - conversion to the Presbyterian Church. My classmate invited me to their youth night, where we had fellowship, played games, and Pastor Stan sat down with us and taught us about the Bible and the beliefs of the Church. They didn’t have a special teen service - we went to the same service with the adults.

It worked. I started attending every Sunday service and was baptized and confirmed. So from a practical standpoint, I would say it’s not a problem.

Pax,
Robert

PS This was a fairly traditional Presbyterian church, not a modern “happy clappy” church, so it was closer to traditional Catholic than some Catholic Masses I have attended. :o
rlg…

I see your point, but I wonder if it’s practical. Maybe the issue comes down to what the objective is.

If the objective is to get “kids” who already practice the Faith on a fairly consistent basis more deeply involved, then I agree with you. After-Mass meetings with more modern music, etc. might be appealing.

But, what about those who can’t “identify” with the older, more traditional Mass and its rituals? How do we draw them in? How do we get them to be, at least, part of the audience so that they’re exposed to the Message? If we don’t get them in the front door, haven’t we failed?
 
rlg…

I see your point, but I wonder if it’s practical. Maybe the issue comes down to what the objective is.

If the objective is to get “kids” who already practice the Faith on a fairly consistent basis more deeply involved, then I agree with you. After-Mass meetings with more modern music, etc. might be appealing.

But, what about those who can’t “identify” with the older, more traditional Mass and its rituals? How do we draw them in? How do we get them to be, at least, part of the audience :confused: so that they’re exposed to the Message? If we don’t get them in the front door, haven’t we failed?
If all we think of the youth of today is that they need to be entertained then we have failed them in a big way. They are not an audience unless you only want them entertained. Your suggestion is like bringing them in by the back door and expecting everyone else to look the other way. Don’t sell the youth short. They are seeking God and we need to do our job and show them what we believe.
 
But, as we allow modern music and such it keeps pushing away tradition. Again I say, why does the modern ways have to be brought to mass. Can’t there just be a Faith rock Friday er something. It makes no sense to have drums and modern music at mass. Why I feel so very much up lifted at a traditional mass. So I ask again. What gain is there to have drums, modern, music, waving hands at mass. I am a teen, but I don’t like the modern way.
 
I wouldn’t say the Latin mass is “cool” per say, but it is extremely spiritual and beautiful if you attend in the right frame of thought. It takes me to an extreme sense of spiritual meditation. The use of polyphony or chant also aids in focusing on God. You need lots of focus, which is sometimes hard and is probably why some people don’t like the TLM mass. My first Trid mass was right after college. There was truly a mysterium that is sometimes lacking in the novos ordo - whether or not traditional music or pop-like music is being used. I do find the mysterium in NO masses as well, so I’m NOT saying that the TLM mass is better than the other.
that was what i meant by ‘cool’. perhaps awesome would have been more appropriate. it seems like a real experience. not just ‘church’. not to put down regular mass as i said before, but there’s something that makes it seem so much more … holy. maybe it’s the mystery that appeals to me. and, although it is a small difference, the idea of the priest also facing the altar. in the NO mass there’s more of a focus on the priest himself (who i suppose being in persona christi deserves some focus) . but the idea of everyone, the priests included facing the altar. it’s no doubt a celebration of god.
 
But, as we allow modern music and such it keeps pushing away tradition. Again I say, why does the modern ways have to be brought to mass. Can’t there just be a Faith rock Friday er something. It makes no sense to have drums and modern music at mass. Why I feel so very much up lifted at a traditional mass. So I ask again. What gain is there to have drums, modern, music, waving hands at mass. I am a teen, but I don’t like the modern way.
My teenagers agree with you. They have experienced both, and they understand and appreciate a more reverent Mass.
 
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