Bongos, mass and my husband

[agapewolf]

Except that it doesnt state drums specifically. That is one’s own interpretation.

B-gal, you posted that as a reply to me, and IF YOU PLEASE READ MY POST, you will see that I was not arguing for it in the mass. I even stated very clearly, please don’t jump on it becasue I wasn’t making that argument.

 

[THutch04]

I would say in western society, no, they don’t belong. What drives me crazy is when music directors try to add them to traditional hymns…not a very pretty sound…

 

[Guitar]

I would say in western society, no, they don’t belong. What drives me crazy is when music directors try to add them to traditional hymns…not a very pretty sound…

The “in western society” bit is key for me.

If, in a society somewhere else, hand drums are traditionally an indication of solemnity and splendour and/or the sacred, just as the pipe organ is in some Western societies, then hand drums would be appropriate to liturgical music in that context. (And let’s face it, liturgical music has to be different in some cultures anyway - I can’t imagine for example how we could impose Western music on pitch languages, for example.) I’m not inside other people’s heads and as one who has made some pretty oddball musical resources work before, I’m reluctant to make blanket statements - clever people can achieve surprising things with unusual tools. I personally would find them distracting though because they don’t have ceremonial and sacred associations in my culture.

 

[benedictgal]

The “in western society” bit is key for me.

If, in a society somewhere else, hand drums are traditionally an indication of solemnity and splendour and/or the sacred, just as the pipe organ is in some Western societies, then hand drums would be appropriate to liturgical music in that context. (And let’s face it, liturgical music has to be different in some cultures anyway - I can’t imagine for example how we could impose Western music on pitch languages, for example.) I’m not inside other people’s heads and as one who has made some pretty oddball musical resources work before, I’m reluctant to make blanket statements - clever people can achieve surprising things with unusual tools. I personally would find them distracting though because they don’t have ceremonial and sacred associations in my culture.

In fact, Pope John Paul II addresses this issue in his Chirograph on Sacred Music. Even though in the end of this exerpt he mentions language, it pretty much supports what you are trying to say in essence:

1. The music and song requested by the liturgical reform - it is right to stress this point - must comply with the legitimate demands of adaptation and inculturation. It is clear, however, that any innovation in this sensitive matter must respect specific criteria such as the search for musical expressions which respond to the necessary involvement of the entire assembly in the celebration and which, at the same time, avoid any concessions to frivolity or superficiality. Likewise, on the whole, those elitist forms of “inculturation” which introduce into the Liturgy ancient or contemporary compositions of possible artistic value, but that indulge in a language that is incomprehensible to the majority, should be avoided.

In this regard St Pius X pointed out - using the term universal - a further prerequisite of music destined for worship: “…while every nation”, he noted, “is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinate in such a manner to the general character of sacred music, that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them”[16]. In other words, the sacred context of the celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or permit forms of composition and performance to be introduced without careful review.

In the jungles of South America, South Africa or the South Pacific, I can understand their usage. But, in a city parish in the United States? Like Mammy said to Miss Scarlett: “Miss Scarlet, it ain’t fitting. It just ain’t fitting.”

 

[whatevergirl]

Just sharing this thread in its entirety with my dh. He said that before we join this parish, he would like to have a one on one with the head pastor, to discuss our concerns. He said that mass shouldn’t change to accomodate those Catholics who want a Protestant style service. (The mass is relatively traditional, albeit with a few of these nuances) It can’t hurt–we shall see!

 

[benedictgal]

Just sharing this thread in its entirety with my dh. He said that before we join this parish, he would like to have a one on one with the head pastor, to discuss our concerns. He said that mass shouldn’t change to accomodate those Catholics who want a Protestant style service. (The mass is relatively traditional, albeit with a few of these nuances) It can’t hurt–we shall see!

Approach the subject tactfully. But, remember, too, that Redemptionis Sacramentum says that you have the right (as all Catholics do) to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to all of the norms and rubrics of the Church. This also includes music.

You can look at many of the Church’s documents at www.adoremus.org, which has a really good library. When you get to the homepage, just click on to the documents section and it will take you straight to the digital library. It’s very user-friendly.

 

[Guitar]

Just sharing this thread in its entirety with my dh. He said that before we join this parish, he would like to have a one on one with the head pastor, to discuss our concerns. He said that mass shouldn’t change to accomodate those Catholics who want a Protestant style service. (The mass is relatively traditional, albeit with a few of these nuances) It can’t hurt–we shall see!

Would it be better, maybe, to approach with the pastor on the basis of what’s appropriate for the Catholic church as laid out in her own documents? I’m just wondering whether bringing up “Protestant service” might risk getting the pastor’s back up and perhaps not get the discussion off on the best footing. I guess I’ve seen plenty of abuses but they weren’t committed by people saying, “I want a service like the Protestants have”, it was a matter of people wanting to do their own thing. Most priests have probably had their share of irate parishioners (purple people, I called them on another thread) slapping the label “Protestant” on everything they don’t like and he might jump to a conclusion about you that is quite wrong before he gets to know you - it’s quite clear you are really nice people and not “troublemakers”. IMO the issue is whether we are following our own rules and regs or not - it probably isn’t necessary to use Protestant services (which, as many have told us here, vary widely) as a kind of a negative benchmark to get the point across. And if the pastor’s not receptive, the P word probably won’t make him any more so.

Just a thought offered FWIW. :twocents:

 

[johnnydigit]

i don’t like the full band at Mass, but i say, let the kids, teens, and whatnot have them, at least until or if the Magisterium says otherwise. if you don’t like it, don’t go. when i have to attend a jolly Mass, i grit my teeth and try to focus on Mass, otherwise i prefer to attend the Tridentine/EF/Latin Mass. i’m sure the former feel the same way about our traditional Masses.

i always try to remember that i can’t judge, and that i used to be just like them at one time. i grew and now have a changed attitude, so now i have to let God do the same with them if He wills it to be.

I imagine it also irritates the angels and saints, too, who are worshiping in awe and reverence around us. I believe we should be in harmony with them.

i used to think the same, but now i feel the angels simply look at us as a Mother may look at her baby as it makes a noise during Mass - it’s not their fault and they don’t know any better so it’s not big deal. they are much more occupied and content in the presence of God than being distracted by our antics. we’re just a bunch of clueless little babies with undeveloped eyes compared to our holy angels.

 

[tcraig]

I guess I’ve seen plenty of abuses but they weren’t committed by people saying, “I want a service like the Protestants have”, it was a matter of people wanting to do their own thing.

As a former protestant, I never witnessed any of the goofy stuff that I have seen on a regular basis since I joined the Catholic Church.

Additionally, I think Catholics are just too embarrassed to admit that their fellow Catholics are actually thinking up this insane stuff on their own. Much easier to simply blame it on those pesky protestants.

 

[whatevergirl]

Would it be better, maybe, to approach with the pastor on the basis of what’s appropriate for the Catholic church as laid out in her own documents? I’m just wondering whether bringing up “Protestant service” might risk getting the pastor’s back up and perhaps not get the discussion off on the best footing. I guess I’ve seen plenty of abuses but they weren’t committed by people saying, “I want a service like the Protestants have”, it was a matter of people wanting to do their own thing. Most priests have probably had their share of irate parishioners (purple people, I called them on another thread) slapping the label “Protestant” on everything they don’t like and he might jump to a conclusion about you that is quite wrong before he gets to know you - it’s quite clear you are really nice people and not “troublemakers”. IMO the issue is whether we are following our own rules and regs or not - it probably isn’t necessary to use Protestant services (which, as many have told us here, vary widely) as a kind of a negative benchmark to get the point across. And if the pastor’s not receptive, the P word probably won’t make him any more so.

Just a thought offered FWIW. :twocents:

Hi Guitar!
What he means is that non denoms especially in the south, have a lot of theatrics, and pretty much ‘do their own thing.’ That is what the Catholic mass is evolving to here in the south, it seems, to ‘compete’ if you will, with other churches that have no structure. I dunno. I doubt we will bring it up like that, but we are going to state that there seems to be a lack of authentic music being played at the masses, and an overall irreverance in the choice of instruments. We have had a lot of talks with this priest…and we really like this parish largely due to the priests. I’ll have to keep everyone posted!

 

[Guitar]

Hi Guitar!
What he means is that non denoms especially in the south, have a lot of theatrics, and pretty much ‘do their own thing.’ That is what the Catholic mass is evolving to here in the south, it seems, to ‘compete’ if you will, with other churches that have no structure. I dunno. I doubt we will bring it up like that, but we are going to state that there seems to be a lack of authentic music being played at the masses, and an overall irreverance in the choice of instruments. We have had a lot of talks with this priest…and we really like this parish largely due to the priests. I’ll have to keep everyone posted!

A-ha. Understood!

Will look out for updates!

 

[Sarabande]

The “in western society” bit is key for me.

If, in a society somewhere else, hand drums are traditionally an indication of solemnity and splendour and/or the sacred, just as the pipe organ is in some Western societies, then hand drums would be appropriate to liturgical music in that context. (And let’s face it, liturgical music has to be different in some cultures anyway - I can’t imagine for example how we could impose Western music on pitch languages, for example.) I’m not inside other people’s heads and as one who has made some pretty oddball musical resources work before, I’m reluctant to make blanket statements - clever people can achieve surprising things with unusual tools. I personally would find them distracting though because they don’t have ceremonial and sacred associations in my culture.

Once again, I agree with Guitar here. I personally do not want them during mass. I’ve experienced it enough throughout the years and have been pretty turned off by it during mass. (Note: I don’t mind them at all for outside of mass or even for Christian rock bands, etc.)

As many of us are in the western society, these types of instruments are “usually” viewed as instruments for secular use.

Although, in other cultures, such as in, let’s say Africa, South Pacific, etc. they would not. Having attended Filipino masses as a kid whenever I’d spend weekends with my Filipino relatives, the music liturgy was different compared to what I’m used to as I was brought up in the US and within the western culture. BUT it made sense and fit within the culture. The same goes with African-American parishes. The Gospel music and usage of certain instruments make sense there. Although, it would totally grate on me and be extremely disjunct and “forced” if I attended a mass like that in the US or Europe which is mostly made up for the western culture.