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Xzoma
Guest
Demons, Deliverance, and Discernment by FR Mike Driscoll. Great book. Not enough of this information out there as it should be. The battle for the soul by Satan is never ending and should be discussed more often.
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friardchips
Guest
I heard the radio show. I didn’t agree with what he said about possession, I’m afraid. Seemed to think Catholics could be fully possessed because Satan can’t take over the soul but can fully possess the mind. I was to understand that one’s mind is surely linked with the soul. I am not sure that Catholics can be fully possessed but maybe I misinterpreted what the priest explained. I apologise if so?! If not, I remain convinced that the practicing baptised Catholic cannot be fully possessed, because their mind is in the hands of their Creator…? Their WIll belongs to Him.
This is different to obsession and oppression and other lesser forms of possession which are in many ways more dangerous because they are more subtle and so maybe not always rooted out, they go unnoticed, but this is still a far cry from out and out possession. I am open to learning more if I am wrong…
Satan has limited power, especially over baptised Christians.
C
CB_Catholic
Guest
That does not make sense. The Church has always taught that our will is free. Baptism is regenerative, but it in no way negates our free will. Also, a valid Baptism is regenerative for ALL Christians, not just Catholics (even though they may have different theology on it) and is recognized by the Catholic Church. Most Christians spend their entire lives learning how to overcome their will and submit it to God, and very few accomplish it.I heard the radio show. I didn’t agree with what he said about possession, I’m afraid. Seemed to think Catholics could be fully possessed because Satan can’t take over the soul but can fully possess the mind. I was to understand that one’s mind is surely linked with the soul. I am not sure that Catholics can be fully possessed but maybe I misinterpreted what the priest explained. I apologise if so?! If not, I remain convinced that the practicing baptised Catholic cannot be fully possessed, because their mind is in the hands of their Creator…? Their WIll belongs to Him.
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friardchips
Guest
A baptised Catholic has an imprint of our Lord on his or her character. Yes, we have freewill, good point.
But through Baptism our wills are given support. By saying that , I mean that our wills are in our Lord’s hands, I didn’t mean that He controls our wills; rather, that our lives have been paid for at an expensive price! Do we not have guardian angels or is it that you think they are not really guardian angels?!So with this thinking, would it not be heretical to suggest that Satan can gain complete and absolute control over our minds. I could see how Satan can **influence **one’s mind, but not control it. Satan has limited power! If we say he could do this, then we are saying that God has given Satan the power to take control of our own minds and that baptism brings no spiritual guidance or support. Sorry, but that does not really fit. Maybe someone could better explain to me how it is that Satan could take over a Baptised Christian’s/Catholic’s mind?
Maybe the problem is that people don’t properly understand how grace works and how angels are not these beings with wings who have flashy swords and medievil armour. They are spiritual protectors of our Reason (our minds) and Faith.
Angels protect us, but more than that, they help to guide our minds, to preserve its innocence, to point out REASON, as opposed to disorder, sin/evil and chaos. This is how angels work. Yes, we can take that power away from them. When we sin. But I don’t believe that we are ever completely out of our Creator’s view even we we have sinned, only if we die in a state of mortal sin, because we are prompted to sorrowfulness that we might repent, so with this understanding, we can say that grace is working in us at all times, and angels work to protect our minds and hearts from the temptations of Satan, even if we move away temporarily. So again, our minds can be overcome with horrid pressure, sure, but if baptised, then we have protection via extra grace.
So am I wrong?
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friardchips
Guest
We surrender our wills. In docility. That is all that is needed.In fact, CB Catholic, this proves my theory :angel1: because if we are called to submit, surrender our wills to our Creator, wouldn’t that be a bit dangerous unless we had guidance and support spiritually; if Satan could just come in and take over our minds then letting go could be fatal, in that case?! People find it hard to think of our Lord as actually shepharding us, but low and behold, this is not just a metaphor, not for baptised Christians/Catholics, it isn’t!
:extrahappy:
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Exiled_Child
Guest
I didn’t see it in the bookstore. Is it available directly from CAF?
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Agreed.
Demonic possession take place in a process where the demon convinces the person to surrender their will to him.
A good book to read which will keep many up at night is. “Hostage to The Devil,” by Malachi Martin.
Jim
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friardchips
Guest
Baptism is a solemn exorcism that frees the baptised from demons and the dominion of Satan.
CCC.
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friardchips
Guest
I believe that we can surrender our wills to satan. But for that to become a fully blown possession - I find that hard to believe. And considering that an extremely low percentage of people who go to an exorcist are not found to be possessed but rather having mental difficulties I think kind of suggests that Catholics can’t be. Because surely atheists are more vulnerbale and would make up that other 1 or so % of those who are found to be possessed?
I wonder how the Holy Spirit could be in a person while the devil reigns in them. This is another difficult question.
Might have a look at that book.
The reason I got stirred by the priest’s comment is that his comment made me feel a lack of faith. Now, say a baptised person can be fully possessed, knowing that makes me feel less confident and normally it is the work of the devil is to make us feel more vulnerable. To chip away at us.
This link is of an exorcist on Catholic Answers, and he has the same lingering concerns about the idea of wills being taken over, because it is closely related to the soul, although he does say that the will can have some control over it taken by Satan:
catholic.com/magazine/articles/interview-with-an-exorcist
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Except that the Baptized can become demonically possessed.
In the book, Hostage to the Devil, which is the documented accounts by the Catholic Church of demonic possession in the USA, one of the people was a Catholic Priest.
Read the book, it’s well written and Malachi Martin was a Jesuit Priest an expert on demonic possession and exorcism.
He covers in detail the process of demonic possession as he delivers the five cases.
The former exorcists for the Archdioceses of New York was on Mother Angelica Live, years back
Callers called and asked about Malachi Martin, and the priest told the callers that he knew Fr Martin and was his consultant when he became an exorcist priest for the dioceses. He also said the book was very accurate.
Jim
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friardchips
Guest
I don’t believe it, yet. I’d have to read the book and several others to compare.
Not sure if there is anything in official Church teaching that says we have to believe baptised Catholics can be fully possessed?!
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friardchips
Guest
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well, the book provides Church teaching.
Remember, Baptism doesn’t remove our free will.
In demonic possession, it is man’s will the demon seeks to get control over.
I believe all but one of the cases, were Catholics. One case was a Jewish girl.
Jim
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friardchips
Guest
I respect your opinion and thank you for it - you have obviously based it upon references and research. But I remain unconvinced. I know baptism does not remove our free will and we can still sin, mortally, and as you say, demons seek to “get control over” our wills, this much is for sure; however, it is not so much that I don’t believe that satan and his angels cannot try and gain control but rather I doubt the severity of which they can because I think it is obscure reasoning that attributes to them too much power. They are limited in their power, to affect us, otherwise, being fallen angels, they could simply destroy us with next-to-no effort. If we have been anointed then we already belong to our Creator. Our Baptism was OUR definite choice, from that point, we are on the good side of salvation history, though we can undo it with sin, but that choice can’t make us fall completely back in the grips of satan, unless we were to die in mortal sin.
Are you sure that the people mentioned in the book were baptised, and/or were not just suffering from mental issues? Maybe they were not diagnosed properly. Are you also sure that the exorcists in the book were in favour, recognised, by the Vatican. There are a lot of priests and not all fall in line.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
From what I remember, yes, the people were Baptized except for one, the Jewish girl.
And there was a Catholic Priest who was possessed and of course he was Baptized.
Jim
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friardchips
Guest
I am shocked to hear that. I choose to remain sceptical but will look into things from the info. you’ve put forward.
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J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
FYI, the book is available in the Public Library around here.I am shocked to hear that. I choose to remain sceptical but will look into things from the info. you’ve put forward.
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Jim
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friardchips
Guest
One other point too, is that after baptism, in which we are given a solemn exorcism away from the dominion of satan - freed, IOW, at a heavy price - although we can sin mortally, if it were that once out of a strate of grace we were completely back in the realms of satan, chained to him, we would have to be baptised again, which we do not have to be, and this suggests that even in a state of mortal sin we are still in our Creator’s hands, constantly being prompted back to our royal inheritance, under His royal protection.
I think if I were an exorcist, I would not write books on exorcism because I would be so careful due to the temptation of pride and the seeking of good opinion. Instead, I would choose to remain an unknown, unless of course, the Vatican asked me to write something official or to be more transparent about my work. I severely doubt any notion that baptised Catholics can be fully possessed (by that I mean, body not in one’s own control). It seems very dubious reasoning to me.
I think if I were an exorcist, I would not write books on exorcism because I would be so careful due to the temptation of pride and the seeking of good opinion. Instead, I would choose to remain an unknown, unless of course, the Vatican asked me to write something official or to be more transparent about my work. I severely doubt any notion that baptised Catholics can be fully possessed (by that I mean, body not in one’s own control). It seems very dubious reasoning to me.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well in the five cases, they were documented in detail and accepted by the Church.Just as shocking.
I do want to say that I really am not convinced. I suspect a certain amount of malpractice in such matters. We have to be careful of sensation and those who wish to attract attention. But as I said, you’ve convinced me to look further into the subject, and no doubt will purchase some books on it (library; no chance!).
He’s one, but I’m going from memory here, so excuse me if I’m not 100% on the details.
In the case of the Jewish girl, she was under treatment by a Jewish Psychiatrist. Being she was not getting better but worse, her brothers decided to contact a priest. They did not know that the priest was an exorcist priest at the time.
The girl’s doctor objected staunchly against the exorcism. He himself was an atheist and did not believe in demonic possession.
Anyway, after being convinced by the brothers and the priest, the doctor agreed, providing he would be in the room at the time of the exorcism.
The priest reluctantly agreed, but only after getting the doctor’s promise that he would not speak nor try to intervene. He agreed.
However, when the exorcism began, the demon immediately turned to the psychiatrist and began asking him questions and telling him things about the doctors dead mother, which no one knew. The doctor broke his promise and began questioning the demon, and the demon then had control and began attacking the doctor verbally.
The doctor ended up having a nervous breakdown in the room, and then the demon turned on the priest physically and put him in the hospital for three months.
While in recovery, the priest realized his mistake allowing the doctor into the room. After he got out of the hospital, he returned to the girls home and completed the exorcism.
Jim
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friardchips
Guest
Thanks for this. Well:
1 Could it be that the jewish girl was not a Christian.
- Could it be that if it seems a Catholic - laity or religious - has been taken over by a demon, it is rather that the demon has exaggerated the mental trauma of the person which already existed; thus, making it seem like total possession but in fact being less than that yet in combination with the already mentally suffering person the demon leads them to similar physical manifestations?
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