Book Banning

[Neolithic]

An intelligent (not to mention Christian) person despises none of his or her fellow human beings - so ‘despise intelligently’ is in fact an oxymoron.

No, it isn’t. If you’re going to like or dislike someone or something strongly, it’s best to know why. Don’t you agree?

You might despise their actions and pray for their soul - as you should despise ALL sin and pray for ALL souls. You don’t need intimate knowledge of every sin - or every soul - in order to do so properly.

That’s completely against human nature. You can’t tell me there is no person in the world you dislike. If you did, you’d be lying. Sorry, hun, you ain’t that close to Christ. No human is; that’s part of our problem.

 

[LilyM]

No, it isn’t. If you’re going to like or dislike someone or something strongly, it’s best to know why. Don’t you agree?

I know exactly why I dislike Hitler strongly - he subscribed to nutty conspiracy theories about Jews and presided a regime which exterminated millions. Not to mention disabled people, Slavs (I am of Slavic heritage) and gypsies.

I don’t need to read Mein Kampf to know these things, or to justify my dislike.

That’s completely against human nature. You can’t tell me there is no person in the world you dislike. If you did, you’d be lying. Sorry, hun, you ain’t that close to Christ. No human is; that’s part of our problem.

I never said I DIDN’T - but such feelings are unChrist-like, unjustifiable and not to be indulged in as far as they can be controlled. No amount of reading can ever justify an always-unjustifiable despising of persons.

 

[Neolithic]

I know exactly why I dislike Hitler strongly - he subscribed to nutty conspiracy theories about Jews and presided a regime which exterminated millions. Not to mention disabled people, Slavs (I am of Slavic heritage) and gypsies.

And homosexuals. Had you read Mein Kampf, you’d know that. Or, did you already?

I don’t need to read Mein Kampf to know these things, or to justify my dislike.

I didn’t say you did. But Mein Kampf was simply an example. You can’t dislike or like anything because someone tells you to. I read Mein Kampf to find out for myself, and it just so happens that the teachers and documentaries were correct. However, the book taught me more about the man than did the teacher and programs.

I simply don’t see how you can dislike or like anything or anyone without seeing firsthand what that thing or person was about. Call me crazy.

I never said I DIDN’T - but such feelings are unChrist-like, unjustifiable and not to be indulged in as far as they can be controlled. No amount of reading can ever justify an always-unjustifiable despising of persons.

That’s not true. I’m sure some people have read Mein Kampf and said, “Wow, this guy hit the nail on the head.” I don’t believe he did, and neither do you, but not everyone agrees with us. Perhaps they thought that Hitler was right in despising Jews. Reality is relative, so said Ayn Rand.

She was an atheist, you realize, so I suspect you would object to the reading of her books.

 

[LilyM]

And homosexuals. Had you read Mein Kampf, you’d know that. Or, did you already?

Yes I knew.

I didn’t say you did. But Mein Kampf was simply an example. You can’t dislike or like anything because someone tells you to. I read Mein Kampf to find out for myself, and it just so happens that the teachers and documentaries were correct. However, the book taught me more about the man than did the teacher and programs.

I don’t dislike Hitler because anyone told me to - all I needed to do was see raw data about what he said and did (the sorts of things I mentioned in my last post) for me to have ample and well-founded reason to dislike him all on my own.

I simply don’t see how you can dislike or like anything or anyone without seeing firsthand what that thing or person was about. Call me crazy.

Wha … ? I’ve seen and heard the man at length, firsthand, on film - you know documentaries have been made showing his home movies as well as the more traditional Nuremberg speeches etc. So I know the good points - he loved Eva Braun and his dog etc etc - as well as the rest.

I’ve seen than enough, at any rate, to have a decent idea of ‘what he was about’ and have a solid basis for my opinion. Maybe not as much as you have, but that’s not the issue.

That’s not true. I’m sure some people have read Mein Kampf and said, “Wow, this guy hit the nail on the head.” I don’t believe he did, and neither do you, but not everyone agrees with us.

It’s not true that you shouldn’t read about someone you despise when you know it’s merely going to feed your despising of that person? Of course you should cease in such a situation - how can continuing and indulging your unChristian sentiments possibly draw you closer to God?

As an example - this conversation with you is becoming an irritation and annoyance to me. Because I know that to continue is not fulfilling any godly purpose in my life, I’m going to cease and desist.

Farewell.

 

[Neolithic]

Yes I knew.

Yeah. I can see how in such an accepting society you could forget that Hitler persecuted homosexuals but remember that he persecuted gypsies.

Wha … ? I’ve seen and heard the man at length, firsthand, on film - you know documentaries have been made showing his home movies as well as the more traditional Nuremberg speeches etc. So I know the good points - he loved Eva Braun and his dog etc etc - as well as the rest.

I’ve seen than enough, at any rate, to have a decent idea of ‘what he was about’ and have a solid basis for my opinion. Maybe not as much as you have, but that’s not the issue.

Well, there is a difference: I don’t hate or despise Hitler, because after reading Mein Kampf, I realize that he was ill. He needed help. That’s what reading can do for you. And while I’m a psychologist, you don’t need to be one in order to realize that he was ill. Read Mein Kampf and you’ll see what I mean.

The title - Mein Kampf - is very beautiful when translated into English: My Struggle. I will give him that much.

You know, for much of my life, I have been involved with the Peace Corps, Amensty International, Rainbow PUSH coilation, and other such groups. I actually thought about writing a book entitled *My Mein Kampf. * It’s a nice name, I think.

It’s not true that you shouldn’t read about someone you despise when you know it’s merely going to feed your despising of that person?

No, I don’t think so. Because you don’t know whether or not you’ll despise him more. That was my entire purpose of reading it. Understanding the reason why he did what he did is a good thing, so as to not repeat history and to simply be more educated.

As an example - this conversation with you is becoming an irritation and annoyance to me. Because I know that to continue is not fulfilling any godly purpose in my life, I’m going to cease and desist.

I don’t know why you’re annoyed. We’re simply having a discussion. But, then again, from your comments, it seems you prefer to stay away from those who don’t agree with you.

I shall pray for you.

 

[Neolithic]

I think, Lilly, that you did something in your life you aren’t particularly proud of. Perhaps you had an abortion, a homosexual experience, adulterous experience, or something. You feel so bad about it, you adhere to Biblical principlies like your biological life depends upon it. I think you reject ideas you deem “un-Godly,” and absolutely refuse to consider other opinions. I think this, although I may be wrong and I suspect you will say as much for obvious reasons. But, that is my professional opinion considered after reading “not fulfilling any godly purpose in my life.”

I found in my career that when people make statements like that, there’s a human reason for it, and it has little to do with being closer to God. :shrugs:

 

[LilyM]

I think, Lilly, that you did something in your life you aren’t particularly proud of. Perhaps you had an abortion, a homosexual experience, adulterous experience, or something. You feel so bad about it, you adhere to Biblical principlies like your biological life depends upon it. I think you reject ideas you deem “un-Godly,” and absolutely refuse to consider other opinions. I think this, although I may be wrong and I suspect you will say as much for obvious reasons. But, that is my professional opinion considered after reading “not fulfilling any godly purpose in my life.”

I found in my career that when people make statements like that, there’s a human reason for it, and it has little to do with being closer to God. :shrugs:

Interesting. You consider yourself qualified to have any manner of opinions about me, my past, why I say what I say. All this after - what - half a dozen posts on an internet forum? Never having even seen my face or heard my voice, seen my body language, or anything beyond words on a screen.

You’ve made all these judgements about me and my character based on so very little. And you have the nerve to tell me that the hours I’ve spent looking into Hitler’s eyes on film, hearing what he has to say for himself, don’t qualify me to have opinions about him? I think you’ve made my point for me at least as well as I could make it for myself.

 

[Neolithic]

Interesting. You consider yourself qualified to have any manner of opinions about me, my past, why I say what I say. All this after - what - half a dozen posts on an internet forum? Never having even seen my face or heard my voice, seen my body language, or anything beyond words on a screen.

Well, actually, there have been studies done that indicate a psychologists’ opinion of a patient based of their statements **alone **are accurate. Of course, this is not always the case.

If you like, I can link you to the studies.

You’ve made all these judgements about me and my character based on so very little. And you have the nerve to tell me that the hours I’ve spent looking into Hitler’s eyes on film, hearing what he has to say for himself, don’t qualify me to have opinions about him? I think you’ve made my point for me at least as well as I could make it for myself.

No, I don’t think you are qualified to speak about the man until you read for yourself what he had to say. Like I said, 30 second clips won’t get the job done. Would you read a few statements of the Bible and then believe in Christ? Doubtful.

 

[LilyM]

I think, Lilly, that you did something in your life you aren’t particularly proud of. Perhaps you had an abortion, a homosexual experience, adulterous experience, or something. You feel so bad about it, you adhere to Biblical principlies like your biological life depends upon it. I think you reject ideas you deem “un-Godly,” and absolutely refuse to consider other opinions. I think this, although I may be wrong and I suspect you will say as much for obvious reasons. But, that is my professional opinion considered after reading “not fulfilling any godly purpose in my life.”

I found in my career that when people make statements like that, there’s a human reason for it, and it has little to do with being closer to God. :shrugs:

I won’t say you’re wrong. I absolutely do reject what IS ungodly - to say that I deem it to be so simply means that, to the best of my knowledge (and I DO study secular philosophy and the tenets of non-Christian faiths, so it’s not out of ignorance) I firmly believe it them to truly be so. Just like to the best of our knowledge (and not out of ignorance of other faiths) you and I firmly believe Jesus Christ to be God.

I do so because my spiritual and eternal life, which far more important than my biological, does depend on it. My mind and heart and soul must be conformed to Christ, that absolutely means rejecting anything that I believe not to be of Him.

 

[Neolithic]

I do so because my spiritual and eternal life, which far more important than my biological, does depend on it. My mind and heart and soul must be conformed to Christ, that absolutely means rejecting anything that I believe not to be of Him.

Now this, I agree with. But I don’t believe you can’t read something an also reject it. How can you reject without reading or learning it?

My whole point was that in order to reject something completely, like I do Hitler, we should know what it is.I simply think reading Mein Kampf allows that.

I am not saying that you need to read Mein Kampf to know that Hitler was a nut. But if you want to truly know the man and be more educated on the man, then read it. I just don’t think we can question the motives of those who do based on information we don’t have. I read HItler, yet I reject him as vehemently as you.

People may simply read it to be learned, which is why I read it. It gave me more ammunition for rejecting him, too. Don’t fool yourself, many of the neo-nazis haven’t read it. Go to stromfront.org and you’ll see. Those people are simply ignorant and know nothing of Hitler.

 

[LilyM]

Well, actually, there have been studies done that indicate a psychologists opinion of a patient based of their statements alone are accurate. Of course, this is not always the case.

The accuracy of your conclusions was not the point. I was commenting rather the speed and small volume of evidence on which you based them - it’s not like you’ve read MY memoirs or anything, after all.

No, I don’t think you are qualified to speak about the man until you read for yourself what he had to say. Like I said, 30 second clips won’t get the job done. Would you read a few statements of the Bible and then believe in Christ? Doubtful.

With Paul it took about five seconds and a couple of words. Not even 30 seconds

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

First, correct me if I am wrong, LilyM is not promoting the banning of any book but is simply stating that she would not personally read it. Which is the way it should be. We should have the opportunity to read these books and also have the right to say, “no thanks”

LilyM is right. For me I already knew Hitler was a madman before reading the book, however in reading the book I got to find out a little of the why. Where did this hatred for the Jewish people come from? Where did these nationalistic ideas come from? What were the thoughts and ideals that drove this man to such madness? Sure my class could have just went off of what some other Historian told us these impulses came from, but we were History majors and we were suppose to read and analyze primary documents.

I think we can all think of some books that we would not care to read.

God bless

 

[Neolithic]

Bottom line: I follow you, Lilly. I know what you mean. I certainly do. Certainly, we can “tell” how a person is just by a few statements. But we can only form a general opinion. I can’t form a complex opinion of you without knowing you. Mein Kampf, because it was so voluminous, allows me to know Hitler more than I can you (right now), even though I’m speaking to you via the Internet. I can draw general opinions of you, but none are fact. I think reading something like Mein Kampf allows me to know HItler thoroughly, and then form an opinion based on that. And I did.

My statement was a general opinion:* I think you did this or had this experience.* I don’t know you, however. I believe I *know *Hitler. (And I use that term loosely.)

 

[Neolithic]

The accuracy of your conclusions was not the point. I was commenting rather the speed and small volume of evidence on which you based them - it’s not like you’ve read MY memoirs or anything, after all.

But the accuracy was there, I suspect. Lends more credence to the art (and it is) of psychology.

With Paul it took about five seconds and a couple of words. Not even 30 seconds

There’s more to it than that.

 

[Neolithic]

First, correct me if I am wrong, LilyM is not promoting the banning of any book but is simply stating that she would not personally read it. Which is the way it should be. We should have the opportunity to read these books and also have the right to say, “no thanks”

Indeed. But we don’t have the right to question the motives of those who do decide to read such material, which is what I felt she was doing with her statement.

LilyM is right. For me I already knew Hitler was a madman before reading the book, however in reading the book I got to find out a little of the why. Where did this hatred for the Jewish people come from? Where did these nationalistic ideas come from? What were the thoughts and ideals that drove this man to such madness? Sure my class could have just went off of what some other Historian told us these impulses came from, but we were History majors and we were suppose to read and analyze primary documents.

I agree. But there shouldn’t need to be an academic reason for reading the book, which was my point. Someone not associated with any type of academia could read it to be more educated. So, questioning the motives is absurd, in my view.

I don’t care if she reads it, but please do not question my motives for doing so.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Indeed. But we don’t have the right to question the motives of those who do decide to read such material, which is what I felt she was doing with her statement.

Absolutely, it goes both ways. I guess I didn’t make that apparent with my original post.

I agree. But there shouldn’t need to be an academic reason for reading the book, which was my point. Someone not associated with any type of academia could read it to be more educated. So, questioning the motives is absurd, in my view.

I don’t care if she reads it, but please do not question my motives for doing so.

I agree. I most likely would have picked up the book and read it on my own. I am a history buff and more particularly a Germany history buff. It’s tough to study Germany without going through Hitler.

If it is any consolation, I do not find the desire to learn more about Hitler odd in the least. However if you shave your head, get a swastika tattoo and start talking in German; I may find that odd. But what do I know, I work for the Government.

God bless

 

[Neolithic]

Absolutely, it goes both ways. I guess I didn’t make that apparent with my original post.

I agree. I most likely would have picked up the book and read it on my own. I am a history buff and more particularly a Germany history buff. It’s tough to study Germany without going through Hitler.

I don’t know if LilyM was questioning any ones motives for reading the book. I will let her answer that.

If it is any consolation, I do not find the desire to learn more about Hitler odd in the least. However if you shave your head, get a swastika tattoo and start talking in German; I may find that odd. But what do I know, I work for the Government.

God bless

I have a lot of respect for History buffs. Truly, some of the smartest people I know. I have a friend that, anytime I do something questionable, will invoke History: “Well, you know, the Greeks did this and that caused…” LOL. It’s funny but annoying.

And I agree with the rest.