Book of Common Prayer

[Alexander_Roman]

The Psalms of the BCP were translated by Miles Coverdale (a former Benedictine who took up the clarion call of the Reformation).

His translation is incredibly beautiful and is used by the Orthodox and Catholic Anglican Use.

There is even an adaptation of his psalms to English Orthodox use (with the traditional Eastern divisions of the psalms into 20 kathismata etc.).

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Going from Rite II and especially Rite I of the BOCP to the novus ordo liturgy is a HUGE letdown when it comes to verbage, no doubt.

Yeah right, I know it. …and where they leave a spot for readings, I just used the RC daily readings for the day. I didn’t realize how much I liked that good old BCP

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I bet ole Thomas Cranmer never thought that over 500 years later a buncha Catholics would be using his beloved book as a devotion! I love the BOCP. Ole Calvinist Cranmer didn’t realize how Catholic some of his devotions were!

I would not say that the BOCP is Cranmer’s work as it was revised and corrected to match Catholic Teachings.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You lost me here, Byz. Cranmer authored the BOCP over years and years of working with men like Martin Bucer on it. There was no Catholic pandering by Cranmer???

I would not say that the BOCP is Cranmer’s work as it was revised and corrected to match Catholic Teachings.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Methinks you are talking about the BODW, the Book of Divine Worship, which is the Roman Catholic Anglican Use revision of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church. And usually the Book of Common Prayer is abbreviated BCP.

Let us say it was revised and adapted to match teachings of the Roman Church. There are a number of subtle changes throughout. Zum beispiel:

The prayer of St. John Chrysostom in the 1928 BCP is

ALMIGHTY God, who hast given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplications unto thee; and dost promise that when two or three are gathered together in thy Name thou wilt grant their requests; Fulfil now, O Lord, the desires and petitions of thy servants, as may be most expedient for them; granting us in this world knowledge of thy truth, and in the world to come life everlasting. Amen.

The prayer of St. John Chrysostom in the BODW is

Almighty God, who hast given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication unto thee, and hast promised through thy well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name thou wilt be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, the desires and petitions of thy servants as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of thy truth, and in the world to come life everlasting. Amen.

I wonder which is closer to the original.

I would not say that the BOCP is Cranmer’s work as it was revised and corrected to match Catholic Teachings.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You lost me here, Byz. Cranmer authored the BOCP over years and years of working with men like Martin Bucer on it. There was no Catholic pandering by Cranmer???

I am sorry. I meant to say that the Book of Divine Worship of the Anglican Use, which is the Catholic corrected BOCP is not the work of Cranmer.

I really don’t think any Catholic should use the Book of Common Prayer. We have our own book, the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Book of Divine Worship.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gotcha, Byz. I like the original BOCP and I don’t find any problem with using it but to each his own.

I am sorry. I meant to say that the Book of Divine Worship of the Anglican Use, which is the Catholic corrected BOCP is not the work of Cranmer.

I really don’t think any Catholic should use the Book of Common Prayer. We have our own book, the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Book of Divine Worship.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Gotcha, Byz. I like the original BOCP and I don’t find any problem with using it but to each his own.

as a former episcopalian/anglican who is about to celebrate 3 years of being Catholic, i still have all of my copies of the Book of Common Prayer and i like the one from 1928 the best because that is the one i grew up with. although i haven’t used it since becoming Catholic,
i still keep them for sentimental purposes and will always have them and i am sure, that i will open them from time to time. they were very inspirational to me growing up and a big part of my religious life. as of yet, i do not own any copies of the divine liturgy of the hours, but i do hope to someday. i don’t see that it can hurt praying some of the prayers and reading psalms as long as you understand that you shouldn’t agree with all 39 articles.

 

[ProVobis]

I am sorry. I meant to say that the Book of Divine Worship of the Anglican Use, which is the Catholic corrected BOCP is not the work of Cranmer.

Most of the Cranmer language is still there, though probably we’ve used it so many times we just take it for granted. For example, “The Lord be with you.” No first-year Latin student would translate “Dominus vobiscum” that way. There is an introduction of the subjunctive here which doesn’t exist. And there is inconsistency here as well. “Gloria Patri” is translated as Glory BE to the Father, where Gloria in excelsis Deo is without a verb in the translation. We still use the “hallowed” in the Our Father but who the heck knows what that means? Or trespasses instead of debts. And the most irritating one to me is the “Sursum corda/Habemus ad dominum.” There is NO lifting in the Latin (or Polish, for that matter). Different meaning than turning our hearts upwards. This all seems to be different theology than the Latin.

I really don’t think any Catholic should use the Book of Common Prayer.

Nor do I. But the Anglo-Saxon barbarbians appear to have beaten Rome again.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wonder how much the Lord really cares if we get every little verb tense and piece of grammar properly translated from Latin? At what point do we quit squabbling about minutiae and start doing His work feeding the poor, helping the oppressed, forgiving our enemies, loving our neighbors, partaking of the sacraments, and leading a good life?

I have little trouble with Cranmer and I fail to see how the Anglo-Saxons are conquering Rome when it is Rome gleaning off Anglican communities all over the world with ordinariates? Anglicanism is in realignment and in many cases, chaos. It is no mighty conqueror and the Book of Common Prayer is not posing a mighty threat to the Roman Mass?

Most of the Cranmer language is still there, though probably we’ve used it so many times we just take it for granted. For example, “The Lord be with you.” No first-year Latin student would translate “Dominus vobiscum” that way. There is an introduction of the subjunctive here which doesn’t exist. And there is inconsistency here as well. “Gloria Patri” is translated as Glory BE to the Father, where Gloria in excelsis Deo is without a verb in the translation. We still use the “hallowed” in the Our Father but who the heck knows what that means? Or trespasses instead of debts. And the most irritating one to me is the “Sursum corda/Habemus ad dominum.” There is NO lifting in the Latin (or Polish, for that matter). Different meaning than turning our hearts upwards. This all seems to be different theology than the Latin.

Nor do I. But the Anglo-Saxon barbarbians appear to have beaten Rome again.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I wonder how much the Lord really cares if we get every little verb tense and piece of grammar properly translated from Latin? At what point do we quit squabbling about minutiae and start doing His work feeding the poor, helping the oppressed, forgiving our enemies, loving our neighbors, partaking of the sacraments, and leading a good life?

I have little trouble with Cranmer and I fail to see how the Anglo-Saxons are conquering Rome when it is Rome gleaning off Anglican communities all over the world with ordinariates? Anglicanism is in realignment and in many cases, chaos. It is no mighty conqueror and the Book of Common Prayer is not posing a mighty threat to the Roman Mass?

well said!!

 

[cmodrmac]

how can any prayer made honestly to Our Lord be wrong-the Book of Common prayer has wonderful prayers -including one for people who suffer from Addiction

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I concur. I like the BOCP overall.

how can any prayer made honestly to Our Lord be wrong-the Book of Common prayer has wonderful prayers -including one for people who suffer from Addiction

 

[ProVobis]

I have little trouble with Cranmer

Maybe you didn’t but they burned him for being a heretic. St. Thomas More had a point when he condemned translations of the Bible into English. Too bad they had him beheaded before Cranmer got his hands on the Mass. Lift up your hearts? Hallowed? Really? First year Latin students could have done a better job. So too the Polish and others.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Waterver, Pro. If you’re of the mindset that the BOCP is garbagy literature and poorly-translated, you’re in a minority. It’s a classic, lovely piece of religious devotion IMO. And the fact that Cranmer authored it is irrelevent. Martin Luther wrote “A Mighty Fortress” and yet it’s in our hymnals at my Catholic parish church every Sunday sitting right there. I happen to love the English translations of many things, especially the King James translations of the Bible, namely the Psalms. You may nit-pick them for tenses and whatnot but I’m a simpleton. I find them lovely. And yes, St. Thomas Moore knew a lot about having people executed!

Blessings…

Maybe you didn’t but they burned him for being a heretic. St. Thomas More had a point when he condemned translations of the Bible into English. Too bad they had him beheaded before Cranmer got his hands on the Mass. Lift up your hearts? Hallowed? Really? First year Latin students could have done a better job. So too the Polish and others.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I agree that the language of the BCP is beautiful and is one of the hallmarks of the English language - especially Coverdale’s translation of the Psalter. Many English Catholics and Orthodox swear by it.

And, in the revised Catholic and Orthodox editions that have now been published, the Book of Common Prayer is now part of OUR heritage as well.

Alex

 

[nhylan]

Waterver, Pro. If you’re of the mindset that the BOCP is garbagy literature and poorly-translated, you’re in a minority. It’s a classic, lovely piece of religious devotion IMO. And the fact that Cranmer authored it is irrelevent. Martin Luther wrote “A Mighty Fortress” and yet it’s in our hymnals at my Catholic parish church every Sunday sitting right there. I happen to love the English translations of many things, especially the King James translations of the Bible, namely the Psalms. You may nit-pick them for tenses and whatnot but I’m a simpleton. I find them lovely. And yes, St. Thomas Moore knew a lot about having people executed!

Blessings…

I agree… it is very meet and right.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It is a very good, meet, and joyful thing always and everywhere to try to preach it like it is…

I agree… it is very meet and right.