Book of Enoch?

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I have been reading my way through the Apochrypha and one of the books that I came across that wasn’t included was the Book of Enoch. What is the story behind this book and why is it not considered scripture outside of the Ethiopian & Eritrean Orthodox Churches? It was considered valid by Clement, Tertullian, and St. Augustine…etc. Were there really such a thing as Nephilim? The book is actually a pretty interesting read.
 
I have been reading my way through the Apochrypha and one of the books that I came across that wasn’t included was the Book of Enoch. What is the story behind this book and why is it not considered scripture outside of the Ethiopian & Eritrean Orthodox Churches? It was considered valid by Clement, Tertullian, and St. Augustine…etc. Were there really such a thing as Nephilim? The book is actually a pretty interesting read.
Nephilim are also mentioned in Genesis, so they must have existed.

I have not read Enoch, so have no idea of it’s provenance.

ICXC NIKA
 
I have been reading my way through the Apochrypha and one of the books that I came across that wasn’t included was the Book of Enoch. What is the story behind this book and why is it not considered scripture outside of the Ethiopian & Eritrean Orthodox Churches? It was considered valid by Clement, Tertullian, and St. Augustine…etc. Were there really such a thing as Nephilim? The book is actually a pretty interesting read.
Hi North Texan 88,

There were books that should have been listed in the Apocrypha that have not been. One book- like Enoch- was one that was not in the Bible because of the content and also, and I want to say, would be difficult to understand and to explain, plus which version of the book would be considered to be validated - (As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the Bible, like all languages, have some idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is in some cases an ongoing critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language - considering that, and I think, that the book of Enoch was originally written in the Ge’ez language, and (again) the translation would be lost or the wording would appear different - book of parables, book of Noah) there’s an interesting piece:

"Enoch was the great-grandfather of Noah. The Book of Enoch chapter 68:1 “And after that my great-grandfather Enoch gave me all the secrets in the book and in the parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the parables.”

Adam, after being expelled from the garden, knew about the end of days and the Messiah - these secrets were handed down to each patriarch, it was written that Jacob talked about the end of days to his children upon his death. And Jacob called his sons and said 'Gather, and I will tell you, what will happen to you in the end of days …" [Genesis 49:1-3]

 
I have been reading my way through the Apochrypha and one of the books that I came across that wasn’t included was the Book of Enoch. What is the story behind this book and why is it not considered scripture outside of the Ethiopian & Eritrean Orthodox Churches? It was considered valid by Clement, Tertullian, and St. Augustine…etc. Were there really such a thing as Nephilim? The book is actually a pretty interesting read.
RCIA… Welcome to the Catholic Church!!!

Augustine actually rejected the Book of Enoch. You can read about this here.

You mentioned the Ethiopian Orthodox Church… I believe the Ethiopian Catholic Church also holds it to be canonical.

In the grace of Christ,
Pete
 
RCIA… Welcome to the Catholic Church!!!

Augustine actually rejected the Book of Enoch. You can read about this here.

You mentioned the Ethiopian Orthodox Church… I believe the Ethiopian Catholic Church also holds it to be canonical.

In the grace of Christ,
Pete
St Augustine might have rejected the book but didn’t object to its details - and from where Augustine was born, the municipium of Thagaste (now Souk Ahras, Algeria) in** Roman Africa**, I’m not surprised that he didn’t deny the details - authenticity was undeniable. The translation from the original language would have been difficult to translate it into english (as certain part of the book were troubling) and from what I understood the Parable of the Tares is comes very close to the book (a ryegrass which looks much like wheat in its early stages of growth.[4] Roman law prohibited sowing darnel among the wheat of an enemy,[4][5] suggesting that the scenario presented here is realistic)
"The phrase “Son of Man” appears in the Book of Parables, the second section of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch (1 En. 37-71), a Second Temple Jewish text probably composed around the turn of the era.[9] Here the phrase is used in reference to an eschatological protagonist with heavenly attributions, who is also called “Righteous One,” “Chosen One,” and “Messiah”. This character was expected to preside over the final judgment, pronouncing the sentence against the unrighteous and the sinners (1 En. 61:8-9) and delivering them “to the angels for the punishment “ (1 En. 62:11). He was also supposed to be worshipped by the “kings and the mighty,” (1 En. 62:9), identified throughout the entire Book of Parables with the wicked, who would ask for his mercy during the eschatological judgment. The ending of the Book of Parables, which some scholars view as a later addition,[10] claims that the “Son of Man” is Enoch himself.
The Book of Enoch claims also the pre-existence of the Son of Man: before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirits (1 En. 48:3) and narrates that from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden, and the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might, and revealed him to the elect ones (1 En. 62:7). The Messianic attributes of Isaiah 11:2-5 are referred to him: in him dwells the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit which gives insight, and the spirit of understanding and of might…(1 En. 49:3). The Son of Man is often said to be sitting on a throne of glory." LINK
the eighth week, that of righteousness, And a sword shall be given to it that a righteous judgement may be executed on the oppressors, And sinners shall be delivered into the hands of the righteous. 13 And at its close they shall acquire houses through their righteousness, And a house shall be built for the Great King in glory for evermore, 14d And all mankind shall look to the path of uprightness.

reference:

The Book of Enoch, or, I Enoch: a new English edition : with commentary and …
By Matthew Black, Otto Neugebauer

LINK: books.google.com/books?id=joQeAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=Aramaic+Notes+on+the+Book+of+Enoch+Journal+of+Semitic+Studies&source=bl&ots=PF6_0SM1Ql&sig=Y_iryeEIxChchT7Ozbz4SxWBrdQ&hl=en&ei=CwRjTpLiH4ThsQLJ6oipCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Welcome! - North Texan 88

So, where y’all from? :tiphat:

Mary
 
Like many apocraphal books, the book of Enoch is intermingled with authenticity and pious legend. As we see from Jude, it has at least a quote from Enoch himself, but according to the judgment of the Church there is enough that is not authentic to make it canonical. I have some things to say about it in the Aquinas Study on Jude verese 14-15
14-15 This is a quote from the apocryphal book of Enoch 1:9. As for the question of Jude giving credit to Enoch himself as the one who prophesied, this should not be troubling at all. Who is to say that Enoch did not make that prophecy. Maybe Enoch prophesied, and his prophecy was preserved but not perfectly, at least not exactly the way that it exists now in the book of Enoch. Maybe the book of Enoch has carried some oral tradition from Enoch himself but through time has been mixed with pious legend, as other apocryphal writings do. And let us assume that Jude was guided by the Holy Spirit to quote the part that actually came from Enoch himself. (John Litteral) Tertullian says concerning the possible tradition of the book of Enoch, “I am aware that the writing of Enoch… is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the flood, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity. If that is the reason for rejecting it, let them recall that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch. He had heard and remembered, from hereditary tradition, his own great-grandfather’s ‘grace in the sight of God’ (Genesis 5:24), and concerning all his preaching. Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore succeeded in the trusteeship of Enoch’s preaching”. (Tertullian, On the Apparel of Women, 4.2.1.3)
 
St Augustine might have rejected the book but didn’t object to its details
Hi Morning Song, my sister, Mary!

Actually, one of the reasons Augustine rejected its canonicity was on account of his rejection of its content. In determining who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6, Augustine concluded that the Scripture “unambiguously declares that they were men.” After coming to this conclusion, he went on to assert the following:

“Let us omit, then, the fables of those scriptures which are called apocryphal, because their obscure origin was unknown to the fathers from whom the authority of the true Scriptures has been transmitted to us by a most certain and well-ascertained succession. For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle. But it is not without reason that these writings have no place in that canon of Scripture which was preserved in the temple of the Hebrew people by the diligence of successive priests; for their antiquity brought them under suspicion, and it was impossible to ascertain whether these were his genuine writings, and they were not brought forward as genuine by the persons who were found to have carefully preserved the canonical books by a successive transmission. So that the writings which are produced under his name, and which contain these fables about the giants, saying that their fathers were not men, are properly judged by prudent men to be not genuine” (, Bk. 15, Ch. 23The City of God).

I hope you have a blessed LORD’s Day!

With love in Christ,
Pete
 
Hi Morning Song, my sister, Mary!

Actually, one of the reasons Augustine rejected its canonicity was on account of his rejection of its content. In determining who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6, Augustine concluded that the Scripture “unambiguously declares that they were men.” After coming to this conclusion, he went on to assert the following:

“Let us omit, then, the fables of those scriptures which are called apocryphal, because their obscure origin was unknown to the fathers from whom the authority of the true Scriptures has been transmitted to us by a most certain and well-ascertained succession. For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle. But it is not without reason that these writings have no place in that canon of Scripture which was preserved in the temple of the Hebrew people by the diligence of successive priests; for their antiquity brought them under suspicion, and it was impossible to ascertain whether these were his genuine writings, and they were not brought forward as genuine by the persons who were found to have carefully preserved the canonical books by a successive transmission. So that the writings which are produced under his name, and which contain these fables about the giants, saying that their fathers were not men, are properly judged by prudent men to be not genuine” (The City of God, Bk. 15, Ch. 23).

I hope you have a blessed LORD’s Day!

With love in Christ,
Pete
This is REALLY facinating stuff…but confusing; can you (or anybody) dumb-it-down a bit. I am all ears.

Thanks,
Glennonite
 
This is REALLY facinating stuff…but confusing; can you (or anybody) dumb-it-down a bit. I am all ears.

Thanks,
Glennonite
One thing that I find interesting is that Jerome said that Jude itself had trouble gaining acceptance into the canon precisely because of its quoting from Enoch (cf. , Ch. 4Lives of Illustrious Men).

Since the Eritrean-Ethiopian Catholic Church accepts its canonicity, and since we are in full communion with this Church, it seems that Catholics are obliged to believe two things in connection with this book: (1) Catholics who are not of the Eritrean-Ethiopian tradition are not required to acknowledge its canonicity; and (2) it is not heretical for anyone to acknowledge its canonicity.

So if you are inclined to hold the personal opinion that Enoch is inspired, the Catholic Church says that you are free to believe this; and I suppose that Catholics in the Eritrean-Ethiopian Church are obliged to believe this.

With love in Christ,
Pete
 
One thing that I find interesting is that Jerome said that Jude itself had trouble gaining acceptance into the canon precisely because of its quoting from Enoch (cf. Lives of Illustrious Men, Ch. 4).

Since the Eritrean-Ethiopian Catholic Church accepts its canonicity, and since we are in full communion with this Church, it seems that Catholics are obliged to believe two things in connection with this book: (1) Catholics who are not of the Eritrean-Ethiopian tradition are not required to acknowledge its canonicity; and (2) it is not heretical for anyone to acknowledge its canonicity.

So if you are inclined to hold the personal opinion that Enoch is inspired, the Catholic Church says that you are free to believe this; and I suppose that Catholics in the Eritrean-Ethiopian Church are obliged to believe this.

With love in Christ,
Pete
Thanks Pete; that is helpful, and eye-opening.

Glennonite
 
=NorthTexan88;8323330]I have been reading my way through the Apochrypha and one of the books that I came across that wasn’t included was the Book of Enoch. What is the story behind this book and why is it not considered scripture outside of the Ethiopian & Eritrean Orthodox Churches? It was considered valid by Clement, Tertullian, and St. Augustine…etc. Were there really such a thing as Nephilim? The book is actually a pretty interesting read.
For those wondering [as I was] what this references it referes to a people in the pre-Noah flood period who were considered “giants of sorts”.

The reason it is NOT a included Book is God’s doing, in that everything in the Bible is Divinely Inspired; Apparently this is not;)

God Bless,
Pat
 
Hi Morning Song, my sister, Mary!

Actually, one of the reasons Augustine rejected its canonicity was on account of his rejection of its content. In determining who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6, Augustine concluded that the Scripture “unambiguously declares that they were men.” After coming to this conclusion, he went on to assert the following:

“Let us omit, then, the fables of those scriptures which are called apocryphal, because their obscure origin was unknown to the fathers from whom the authority of the true Scriptures has been transmitted to us by a most certain and well-ascertained succession. For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle. But it is not without reason that these writings have no place in that canon of Scripture which was preserved in the temple of the Hebrew people by the diligence of successive priests; for their antiquity brought them under suspicion, and it was impossible to ascertain whether these were his genuine writings, and they were not brought forward as genuine by the persons who were found to have carefully preserved the canonical books by a successive transmission. So that the writings which are produced under his name, and which contain these fables about the giants, saying that their fathers were not men, are properly judged by prudent men to be not genuine” (The City of God, Bk. 15, Ch. 23).

I hope you have a blessed LORD’s Day!

With love in Christ,
Pete
Hi Pete, thank you - for that greeting 🙂

You’re correct in that Augustine and Jerome were thus opposed to it, however the wording that I used “undeniable” - we have to consider that the book of revelations was rejected in the same mannerism.
“Nearly all the writers of the New Testament show they were familiar with the Book of Enoch, and were favorably influenced by it. Yet, around the fourth century, after the book being given acceptance for centuries, a major part of the church removed the book, and added some “apocryphal” books to the canon. It was due to the efforts of Jerome and Augustine that the book of Enoch was rejected. They object to it because of the story of the angels who co-habited with women in the days preceding and following the flood. This is recorded in the current canon also, but Enoch gave much more detail of such events, and Jerome and Augustine were not agreeable to its obvious and undeniable details. The current canon of the bible is vague enough, that some today can still resist the acceptance of the race of giants that came from such improper union.” LINK and bible-researcher.com/laodicea.html and also see The Old Testament Canon
**Book of Revelations: **
Revelation was accepted into the canon at the Council of Carthage of 397 AD.[30] Revelation’s place in the canon was not guaranteed, however, with doubts raised as far back as the 2nd century about its character, symbolism, and apostolic authorship. LINK
Most canons included it, but some in the Eastern Church rejected it. It is not included in the Peshitta (an early New Testament in Aramaic)
2nd century Christians in Syria rejected it because Montanism, a sect which was deemed to be heretical by the mainstream church, relied heavily on it. " (Augustine - was opposed to the book of Enoch for the same reasons)
Blessing always in Christ,
Mary

Please reply back …
 
Hi Pete, thank you - for that greeting 🙂

You’re correct in that Augustine and Jerome were thus opposed to it, however the wording that I used “undeniable” - we have to consider that the book of revelations was rejected in the same mannerism.

“Nearly all the writers of the New Testament show they were familiar with the Book of Enoch, and were favorably influenced by it. Yet, around the fourth century, after the book being given acceptance for centuries, a major part of the church removed the book, and added some “apocryphal” books to the canon. It was due to the efforts of Jerome and Augustine that the book of Enoch was rejected. They object to it because of the story of the angels who co-habited with women in the days preceding and following the flood. This is recorded in the current canon also, but Enoch gave much more detail of such events, and Jerome and Augustine were not agreeable to its obvious and undeniable details. The current canon of the bible is vague enough, that some today can still resist the acceptance of the race of giants that came from such improper union.”LINK and bible-researcher.com/laodicea.html and also see The Old Testament Canon”
The first source being quoted here sounds very unreliable. Augustine believed that there were giants based on the Biblical witness and other witnesses. He also believed that it is not impossible that spiritual creatures can have relations with human women; he thinks this has happened. So he doesn’t reject the Book of Enoch because what it describes is personally repulsive for him. He just thinks that if you read the Bible carefully, you will come to the conclusion that the event being narrated in Genesis 6 is not describing the cohabitation of angels and women. And since the Book of Enoch contradicts what he thinks is the clear teaching of Scripture, he rejected Enoch as Scripture.

The book also claimed in the next paragraph that…

“Jerome and Augustine failed in getting the council to vote that Enoch was uninspired… so they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. The council voted for the book of Revelation.”

This sounds like a very strange reconstruction of history. Augustine and Jerome never got to meet each other, so it sounds like this author is just making things up. I’m not aware of Enoch ever being on the table for possible inclusion in the canon at any of the councils that Augustine attended, or of there ever being a choice forced between including either Revelation or Enoch but not both, which also sounds strange. The only canon of Scripture from an African council that we have extant is the one from Carthage in A.D. 419. It simply gives us the list of books without any information as to how that list was arrived at, in terms of what debate may have transpired, or the mentioning of other books not included, etc. I think the author made up this whole paragraph. :eek: 🙂 Of course, this is not your fault, at all. But the source sounded opposed to our Catholic faith, from what little I read of it.
Blessing always in Christ,
Mary

Please reply back …
Thank you for your blessings, Mary. I see you just joined here last month. Welcome to the forums! 🙂

With love in Christ,
Pete

Help John Bugay
 
The first source being quoted here sounds very unreliable. Augustine believed that there were giants based on the Biblical witness and other witnesses. He also believed that it is not impossible that spiritual creatures can have relations with human women; he thinks this has happened. So he doesn’t reject the Book of Enoch because what it describes is personally repulsive for him. He just thinks that if you read the Bible carefully, you will come to the conclusion that the event being narrated in Genesis 6 is not describing the cohabitation of angels and women. And since the Book of Enoch contradicts what he thinks is the clear teaching of Scripture, he rejected Enoch as Scripture.

The book also claimed in the next paragraph that…

“Jerome and Augustine failed in getting the council to vote that Enoch was uninspired… so they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. The council voted for the book of Revelation.”

This sounds like a very strange reconstruction of history. Augustine and Jerome never got to meet each other, so it sounds like this author is just making things up. I’m not aware of Enoch ever being on the table for possible inclusion in the canon at any of the councils that Augustine attended, or of there ever being a choice forced between including either Revelation or Enoch but not both, which also sounds strange. The only canon of Scripture from an African council that we have extant is the one from Carthage in A.D. 419. It simply gives us the list of books without any information as to how that list was arrived at, in terms of what debate may have transpired, or the mentioning of other books not included, etc. I think the author made up this whole paragraph. :eek: 🙂 Of course, this is not your fault, at all. But the source sounded opposed to our Catholic faith, from what little I read of it.

Thank you for your blessings, Mary. I see you just joined here last month. Welcome to the forums! 🙂

With love in Christ,
Pete

Help John Bugay
Hi Pete,

Just so you know, it was not my intent to show the opposition to that of the church but of the findings on the book of Enoch - and of the reasoning’s. If you have the time, and you don’t have reply back, Augustine and Jerome communicated with each other by letters on scriptural interpretations and he did write his conclusions to the council (He was in correspondence with all parts of the church; John - bishop of Jerusalem, with Simplician of Milan, with Paulinus in Spain, with Jerome at Bethlehem, with Gaul and Marseilles, and with Rome., to further note: Seven scripture expositors are enumerated by Jerome in a letter to Augustine. They are Origen, Didymus, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Alexander, Eusebius of Emesa, Theodore of Heraclium, and John Chrysostom (letter 75) - In his letters, although not very numerous, to Apocryphal writings - so in essences, these judgments (? - if noted as such) were given in his writings. City of God was very good - but the book gave origin in Adam’s sin, creation and angels …etc, made a very strong impression)- even though, and like I said, we have to consider that the book of revelations was rejected in the same mannerism, that being the fact that the book is not entered in some Eastern Orthodox bibles, that being the Peshitta (an early New Testament in Aramaic).

Good reading material would be in the following areas:

treatise De fide et symbols
Canon law
Quinisext Council
Council of Chalcedon - catholic.org/prayers/councils.php
Synod of Hippo - Hippo Regius

Have a good read. I’m now leaving the board to soak my hands, too much writing…:coolinoff:

Blessings to you in Christ,
Thanks (and a big thanks) Peter for the information.
Mary
 
Thanks Pete; that is helpful, and eye-opening.

Glennonite
You are welcome!

And let me say a little more because, if you get into discussions about this with non Catholics, they will probably not be satisfied with what’s been said so far.

The Catechism identifies the Catholic canon as the “complete list” (, 120CCC). The Catechism is here drawing from , 8Dei Verbum, where it says that “the Church’s full canon of the sacred books is known” through sacred tradition. Dei Verbum, however, does not identify the list of books to be included in this “full canon” that they are talking about. But the Catechism does. We’ll want to keep this in mind when we talk about the possible status of Enoch.

It may be that the completeness that is spoken of at Vatican II and in the Catechism is meant to be taken in contrast with the lack of completeness found in the Protestant canon. Taken in this sense, we would be saying that the Church’s use of “full” (Latin: integer) in this context means that our canon is not injured by missing the additional books found in the Ethiopian canon — i.e., the additional books found in the Ethiopian canon or anywhere else do not add anything of material substance to what God has deemed necessary for mankind to know for the sake of salvation — while it is thus “injured” if we are missing any one of the books in the Catholic canon. And this would also fit in with the idea that the Ethiopian Catholic Church is working with different definitions of “inspired” and “canonical” for the extra books not included in the canon recognized by the Roman Catholic Church. The Bishop of Embeder seemed to be saying this at the Synod of Bishops in 2008:

“As it is for all Christian churches, for the Eritrean-Ethiopian tradition the Bible is “the inspired Word”, “the Word of God”. One of the Biblical witnesses invoked in support of this affirmation is the passage from 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says: ‘All scripture is inspired by God…’

“The sacred authors are enlightened, rather ‘inhabited’ by the Holy Spirit. All the books of the Bible which are considered canonical by other Christian churches are such also for the Eritrean-Ethiopian Church which, moreover, possesses the greatest number of inspired books: 81 books, 46 in the Old and 35 in the New Testament. In the Eritrean-Ethiopian tradition, the concept of canons is flexible and tends to include, rather than exclude. The inspiration which gave life to the sacred books is conceived of as a dynamic process which continues within the community of believers. The vast patrimony of the Christian tradition is rightly considered as irradiation, many texts as seeds of the Word of God. This is why certain Biblical texts present in the canons of the Eritrean-Ethiopian Church are described as awald (sons, progeny [of the Bible]).

“The Eritrean-Ethiopian tradition views the translation of Biblical texts from their original languages to geez and their interpretation as two sisters, two sides of the same coin. The same Spirit which illuminated the sacred author also guides the heart and mind of the interpreter who, with faith, searches for the mystery enclosed in the word. The commentaries known as andemta have above all an everlasting pedagogical value. The first step, the fundamental step, is the learning of the Word. One reads the geez text and translates it into modern language seeking to include the various shades of meaning of the original. Grammatical analysis follows the lectio, and a discussion of the eventual questions of textual criticism. The first key to its understanding is to be found within the Bible. Explaining the Bible with Bible itself is one of the fundamental elements of Eritrean-Ethiopian hermeneutics. Furthermore, the Fathers of the Church are a source which interpreters embrace completely” (Eighth General Assembly).

The 81 books indicated as comprising the canon seem to be the books enumerated here:

1. The Broader Canon

“The main source for this is the traditional Amharic commentary on the Geez text of the Fetha Nägäst.[4] It gives 46 as the total for the books of the Old Testament, made up as follows: - Octateuch (8), Judith (1), Samuel and Kings (4), Chronicles (2), 1 Esdras and the Ezra Apocalypse (2), Esther (1), Tobit (1), Maccabees (2), Job (1), Psalms (1), books of Solomon (5),[5] Prophets (16), Ecclesiasticus (1), Pseudo-Josephus (1); Jubilees and Enoch are to be included in the number (by counting Samuel and Kings as only 2 books). It gives 35 as the total for the books of the New Testament, namely the Gospels (4), Acts (1), the Catholic epistles (7), the Pauline epistles (14), Revelation (1), Sinodos (4 sections), the Book of the Covenant (2 sections), Clement (1), Didascalia (1)” – (The Broader Canon).

But from what Bishop Ghebreghiorghis said, it sounds like they consider all of the extra books as of secondary status, as “sons of the Bible,” and that this is how everything fits together. Viewing it in this way, we could say that these extra books are viewed in the same way that the deuterocanonical books were viewed by many Catholics prior to Trent: they are ecclesiastical books brought forward for the edification of the Church, but not fully inspired in the same sense, or for the establishment of doctrine.

Have a blessed day!

In Christ,
Pete
 
Hi Pete,

Just so you know, it was not my intent to show the opposition to that of the church but of the findings on the book of Enoch - and of the reasoning’s. If you have the time, and you don’t have reply back, Augustine and Jerome communicated with each other by letters on scriptural interpretations and he did write his conclusions to the council (He was in correspondence with all parts of the church; John - bishop of Jerusalem, with Simplician of Milan, with Paulinus in Spain, with Jerome at Bethlehem, with Gaul and Marseilles, and with Rome., to further note: Seven scripture expositors are enumerated by Jerome in a letter to Augustine. They are Origen, Didymus, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Alexander, Eusebius of Emesa, Theodore of Heraclium, and John Chrysostom (letter 75) - In his letters, although not very numerous, to Apocryphal writings - so in essences, these judgments (? - if noted as such) were given in his writings. City of God was very good - but the book gave origin in Adam’s sin, creation and angels …etc, made a very strong impression)- even though, and like I said, we have to consider that the book of revelations was rejected in the same mannerism, that being the fact that the book is not entered in some Eastern Orthodox bibles, that being the Peshitta (an early New Testament in Aramaic).

Good reading material would be in the following areas:

treatise De fide et symbols
Canon law
Quinisext Council
Council of Chalcedon - catholic.org/prayers/councils.php
Synod of Hippo - Hippo Regius

Have a good read. I’m now leaving the board to soak my hands, too much writing…:coolinoff:

Blessings to you in Christ,
Thanks (and a big thanks) Peter for the information.
Mary
Good morning, Mary!

I’m confused by the references you left for me to read. They do not seem to have anything to say about Enoch, but that’s ok.

Augustine and Jerome did write to each other, and, after Augustine won the trust of Jerome, their correspondence is truly heartwarming for me. As for Jerome’s Letter 112 (Letter 75 in Augustine’s collection), I’ve written about the topic of their exchange here: Did Paul rebuke Peter?

As for the canon decided upon at the Council of Hippo, I’ve written a little about that here: Canon 36 from Hippo.

Also, when you quote from a work, you’ll want to cite your source: “He is in correspondence with all parts of the church: with John, Bishop of Jerusalem, with Simplician of Milan, with Paulinus in Spain, with Jerome at Bethlehem, with Gaul and Marseilles, and with Rome” (The Letters of St. Augustine).

As for original sin, we believe that Adam’s sin left our nature in a vitiated state, and under the just condemnation of God. We also believe in “creation and angels.” I’m not sure why you introduced these truths of our faith with the word, “but.” I think we might have a language barrier. 🙂

The reason why Revelation gained acceptance and Enoch didn’t is simply because the greater number of local Churches in the early Church were led by the Holy Spirit to receive Revelation into their canon for reading at Mass, but not to receive Enoch. I’ve outlined Augustine’s procedure for discerning whether a book is to be received into the canon here: We Follow the Biblical Canon of the Ecumenical Council of Trent.

I don’t think I have any more time to devote to this topic at this time. Please be encouraged in the faith! It is fun to be in communion with all of my brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church spread throughout the world!

By the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Pete

“The Gates of Hell Shall not Prevail!”
 
Good evening, everyone!

I happened to listen to a recent Catholic Answers radio broadcast, and they briefly talked about this topic. The call starts at 32:51 of this program. Tim Staples comes back to it again at 43:25.
Good Afternoon, Pete!:tiphat:
MorningSong! Good evening, Mary!

I hope you are doing well.

I had written that the author was wrong in saying that Jerome and Augustine had met. You responded by saying that you “don’t think that the author said that they did.” But take another look at what he wrote:

“Jerome and Augustine failed in getting the council to vote that Enoch was uninspired… so they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch. The council voted for the book of Revelation.”

What council is he talking about? What council did Jerome and Augustine both attend whereat “they forced a vote to make the council choose between the book of Revelation, and the Book of Enoch”? This is an astonishing claim and I am saying that it never happened.

You wrote,

“and the additional website information, was given for others to view/read about the process of how certain books/writing become canonical”

Leaving other things aside, why did you ask me to read what you referred to as, “treatise De fide et symbols,” in particular? I think you copied this title from another website and that you are not familiar with the contents of the actual work being referred to. Is this true? I hate to be suspicious of your character, Mary, but please guard yourself against trying to look more knowledgeable than you are on a subject. It can be pride that makes us do this, or it could be our being too loose with the truth. I get the feeling that you are doing Internet searches for keywords and just quoting from and linking to anything that might be related in order to have something to say, and to give the impression of a breadth of familiarity on the topic, but without grasping the material. I am sorry if I am judging you too harshly, but I want us to be able to give an effective witness to the truth for our non Catholic brothers and sisters who come here looking for answers and for a faithful witness to our Savior.

You also wrote,

“Revelations was accepted into the canon at the Council of Carthage of 397 AD. …] Revelation’s place in the canon was not guaranteed, however, with doubts raised as far back as the 2nd century about its character, symbolism, and apostolic authorship.”

These sentences actually come from one of these two sources (or perhaps from elsewhere):

ujest.com/book_of_revelation/encyclopedia.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

As I mentioned in a previous post, you’ll want to be careful to take the time to cite your sources so that we don’t give room for accusations of plagiarism. Please take the time.

And please forgive me if what I’ve said has hurt you. It is the wound of a clumsy friend who really loves you in Christ.

In Christ,
Pete
 
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