Book of Job--an ancient example of "cut and paste"?

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Gorgias;12906425, I am not going to debate with you. I know what I’m saying is perfectly sound.
If what you’re saying is that Job’s statements can be interpreted (by us) as looking forward to Christ, I’m with you. If what you’re saying is that Job knew he was looking forward to the Messiah for the salvation of an eternal reward – which is what seems to be the case – then your case is tenuous at best, and is completely unsubstantiated by you.
I believe we’re talking past one another
Now that I’ve asked you to clarify and you’ve declined, I have to wonder about that. 🤷
You are limiting Job’s experience to the merely physical, which is not enough to explain his faith/trust in God.
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Job’s faith in God is unquestioned; his understanding of God is what’s in play. He believed in a God who punished and rewarded in the context of one’s human life – and the text of the Book of Job bears that out!
The OP deserves to have his thread stay on topic
Fair enough: yet, our discussion, I think, really does address the OP’s original question – does the text (and cultural context!) of the Book of Job disprove the divine inspiration of the text? The answer is simple: the context of the text can both be understood on its own terms as well as being interpreted as being the Word of God – so, ‘no’, the context doesn’t disprove divine inspiration. (Oddly enough, it really seems that you’re saying that the answer is ‘yes’, in a certain way: that is, unless we understand the context in a way that’s anachronistic – that Job understood his quest as a quest for Christ – you seem to disagree that Job can be interpreted one way from Job’s perspective and another way analogically. If I’m mistaken in my understanding of what you’re saying, please let me know.)
Have a nice day.
You too. 😉
 
On the actual topic of the thread, I think it is clear that Job is the work of more than one hand. It is an extended parable, which has been redacted, edited and added to at various points. I do not agree with the OP’s suggestion that his somehow calls the inspiration of the work into question. There is no reason to believe that inspiration requires that each book of the bible have a single author. If that were the case, it is likely none of the Old Testament, and little of the New, would qualify.
Isn’t that the truth. The observations about the book of Job made me think of the four different traditions behind Genesis and the multiple entries and reductions of the Gospel of John. If we applied a narrow criterion for Inspiration that would only allow one author, we dare to constrain God.
 
Isn’t that the truth. The observations about the book of Job made me think of the four different traditions behind Genesis and the multiple entries and reductions of the Gospel of John. If we applied a narrow criterion for Inspiration that would only allow one author, we dare to constrain God.
Curious, isn’t it?
 
Isn’t that the truth. The observations about the book of Job made me think of the four different traditions behind Genesis and the multiple entries and reductions of the Gospel of John. If we applied a narrow criterion for Inspiration that would only allow one author, we dare to constrain God.
Technically, it still ain’t proven that the documentary hypothesis - where the Torah as a whole, not just Genesis, were composed by cut-and-pasting four or more different narratives together - was really how the Torah was composed: in fact, late last century an increasing number of scholars have begun proposing alternative theories (for example, the supplementary hypothesis - where later authors repeatedly redacted and edited an earlier work).

On the one hand, I agree that the historical-critical method (HCM) can and does lead to loss of faith if used a certain way. But on the other hand, I hardly think the Fundamentalist approach to things - secluding oneself from and refusing to accept modern scholarship in general, calling it satanic even - is hardly the way to go. In fact, I’d say that’s the reason why some people find HCM detrimental: it’s because not too many people bother to actually teach the flock about what it really is (as opposed to just spreading misinformation about it) and how it is to be properly used. In other words, there’s a whole lack of cathechesis in this area.

And without a guide, folks are pretty much left to fend for themselves. They encounter HCM, and it all goes downhill from there.* “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
  • Many folks here in CAF like to denounce the NAB footnotes and prefaces. I do agree that they are problematic, but not for the same reasons as many posters do. The notes are hardly problematic if you’ve got a good grounding on the necessary fields, but I feel the NAB (1) just takes the HCM thing for granted but fails to provide its readers with a proper introduction to it, and (2) only represents a certain segment of modern biblical scholarship: it takes the documentary hypothesis and the Q hypothesis for granted, failing to note that these are hardly gospel truths nor even accepted by all scholars. They might be the majority opinion, but at least the editors of the NAB should have had the decency to note that they are not universally accepted, nor are they the only hypotheses available. (I’d even say the NAB footnotes/prefaces are at risk of being outdated: these were written around the 1970s-80s, I think, and scholarship has made some further advances since then.) So it comes off as a monstrosity - I’ll be harsh here - of one-sided, borderline-outdated assertions that are force-fed to the laity as ‘gospel truth’.
Many scholars (sometimes unfortunately including those who need to be read more) are not exactly the types who could communicate their ideas coherently to the general public and are so often relegated to journals and hefty books the average joe couldn’t be bothered to read through. Out of that small handful that can speak to the public, about more than half of those are really who you might say are in the academic fringes (sometimes even those beyond the pale), or like to state their ideas in a rather provocative way (not always in a good way) that you’ll think they have some sort of hidden agenda (sometimes they do, but oftentimes they’re just really bad public speakers). So all the public is getting is really just a small segment of a segment of modern scholarship, and it does not necessarily always represent the cream of the crop. Really, I’d bet many people have heard about The Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan, or Bart Ehrman (Ehrman’s an almost decent scholar, when he’s talking to other scholars, but he’s a terrible and misleading popular writer IMHO)*, but what about the likes of Richard Bauckham, Luke Timothy Johnson, Ben Witherington III, Larry Hurtado, Fr. Daniel J. Harrington, Dom Bernard Orchard, or Fr. John T. Meier?
  • I won’t even go into the likes of Simcha Jacobovici or Reza Aslan here. They’re sensational writers. They’re hardly real academics. 😛
Of the non-academics who actually know HCM, a segment of those are folks who think they know it, but in reality, they either (1) only have a vague idea or worse, a misconception of it, and/or (2) they only have a bit of knowledge about it (and that’s the more dangerous kind, really; again, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” and all that). Another segment are folks who learn about it, but just keep their knowledge to themselves and do not bother to properly educate others, either because they can’t, or because they won’t. (And this is quite a shame really, because I can tell a lot of people will benefit from this sort of stuff.) Those who really know what HCM is and can educate the average joe in the pew about it - without giving them any bad ideas along the way - are in the precious few. Well, at least I’ve never seen one for quite some time.

In fact, what many people don’t know is that historical-critical method method available out there.only You have other forms of study like rhetorical criticism, audience-response criticism, or literary criticism that’s been gaining some foothold among some modern biblical scholars.
 
that’s the reason why some people find HCM detrimental: it’s because not too many people bother to actually teach the flock about what it really is (as opposed to just spreading misinformation about it) and how it is to be properly used. In other words, there’s a whole lack of cathechesis in this area.

And without a guide, folks are pretty much left to fend for themselves. They encounter HCM, and it all goes downhill from there.* “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
Yep. Totally with you on this! 👍
So it comes off as a monstrosity - I’ll be harsh here - of one-sided, borderline-outdated assertions that are force-fed to the laity as ‘gospel truth’.
I think I’d nuance that just a little bit – at least, from what I’ve seen (and maybe I haven’t seen what you have): the one-sided, borderline-outdated assertions are assumed to be gospel truth, but only because they’re in (the margins of) their Bible.

In a very real way, that’s why the whole ‘Rapture’ nonsense gained a foothold: the margin notes showed up in a Bible one day, and people presumed that, since they were in a Bible, they must naturally be ‘gospel truth’. I can understand this perception; but, nevertheless, I think it’s important that people realize that the text of the Bible is what’s ‘gospel’, and the commentaries and notes are simply the product of someone’s scholarly (not magisterial, but rather, scholarly!) effort…
 
Yep. Totally with you on this! 👍

I think I’d nuance that just a little bit – at least, from what I’ve seen (and maybe I haven’t seen what you have): the one-sided, borderline-outdated assertions are assumed to be gospel truth, but only because they’re in (the margins of) their Bible.

In a very real way, that’s why the whole ‘Rapture’ nonsense gained a foothold: the margin notes showed up in a Bible one day, and people presumed that, since they were in a Bible, they must naturally be ‘gospel truth’. I can understand this perception; but, nevertheless, I think it’s important that people realize that the text of the Bible is what’s ‘gospel’, and the commentaries and notes are simply the product of someone’s scholarly (not magisterial, but rather, scholarly!) effort…
You’ve made a good point right there.

Which reminds me. There’s actually an interesting book on this: The Rise and Fall of the Bible by Timothy Beal. Slightly provocative and misleading title aside, the book really goes on to some length about the whole modern Bible publishing industry and that rather strange phenomenon of ‘Why is actual biblical literacy currently low among Christians, despite Bible sales being on an all time-high?’

Beal points out that many people tend to pay attention more to the ‘values’ added to the Bible (footnotes, prefaces, sidebars, pictures, maps, etc.) than to the biblical text itself. In a way, all those footnotes become the Bible in place of the Bible. (In fact, this is somewhat encouraged by some Bibles: the footnotes and extra stuff are somewhat deliberately designed to grab the reader’s attention more than the ‘plainer’ biblical text.)

He attributes the reason to this popular concept of the Bible as an infallible, self-interpreting book of answers to every question that will miraculously solve every problem in the world (a concept that ultimately derives from 18th-19th century evangelicalism). Which is faulty in a way, because as anyone who’s really read the Bible knows, the actual biblical text is anything but easy to understand and - unlike what a certain segment of Protestant Christianity believes - can’t/doesn’t interpret itself (not that it claims to). As he puts it, it is a ‘library of questions upon questions’. (The Church admits as much, that the Bible isn’t easy to understand.) So when people read the Scriptures for themselves, they are disconcerted because it isn’t what they expected it to be.

This is where all those fancy Bibles come in: publishers make an effort to give the people what they’re looking for, in effect reinforcing the popular image of the Bible as self-interpreting instruction manual. They do this via stuff like the footnotes and the other ‘values’, which purport to clarify what the text means but oftentimes end up supplanting the text itself. In a way, what modern publishers sell is actually not the Bible but biblical interpretations (translation is itself an act of interpretation, so…;))

So yeah, in a modern Bible, the more important piece of text tend to be the footnotes than the actual words themselves. 😉
 
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