Book of Job

[Tony_B]

Hello,

     In discussion with a friend, he mentions that in the Book of Job that God ALLOWS Satan to kill Job's wife.... I don't recall reading this....  did I miss something?  any advice?

      Our discussion continues.....

      Would you agree that Job is being tested by God?  WOuld you agree that Job lost everything due to God's will?  Did Satan play a part in God's will?  DId Satan play a part in Job's sufferring? 

        I have my thoughts but I would like to see yours.  

        Thanks.

Tony B.

 

[George_Craft]

Hi Tony,

Job 2:9 And his wife said to him: Dost thou still continue in thy simplicity? bless God and die.

Job lost everything (but not his wife) when God gave Satan permission to destroy all Job had and to do anything to Job except kill him.

God allowed this to happen to prove that Job was upright and just. I don’t know if the entire series was in God’s Will, but He did allow it to happen to him.

In the end, Job was truly humble and patient before the Lord and was rewarded for that humility and patience with more than he could ever have hoped for.

In that lesson lies our hope.

With love,
George

 

[NotWorthy]

Why does God allow evil in the world? Of course, to allow a greater good.

Take the Greeks. When Alexander the Great conquered the civilized world, many deaths and atrocities occurred. The Greeks then “civilized” everyone, teaching them the Greek language which allowed people to communicate far easier.

Then the Romans conquered the world. Again, much evil was spread as the Romans advanced. But then they built great roads which allowed people to travel from country to country far easier.

It seemed the devil had his due during these times.

But then a small religious sect from a back-water region called Judea was born. This group, called Christians, were able to travel faster and spread the news easier then ever before - all because of the safer and more accessible roads (some still exist today) and the universality of the Greek language, which allowed people all over the civilized world to receive the Good News of the Gospel, no matter what nationality they spoke (man, how many run-on sentences can you do in one paragraph?).

I tell you, "God’s ways are far higher than our ways", my friends!

 

[Mirdath]

We’ve ended up having a pretty thorough discussion of Job (particularly the character of Satan) over here

(before I get into the questions, I should probably mention this: I do not believe the Satan character in Job is the same thing as the devil; rather, based on the meaning of the word ‘satan’ – ‘accuser’ – and how the character is introduced and how he behaves, I believe he is an angel of God whose function is that of a prosecutor against humanity)
Tony B.:

Would you agree that Job is being tested by God?

My interpretation of the story is that Satan is the one doing the testing; however, it’s with God’s approval and consent – and, as angels are without free will, God is therefore complicit.

WOuld you agree that Job lost everything due to God’s will?

Yes. God approved of Satan’s plan to test Job’s faith.

Did Satan play a part in God’s will?

Since Satan here is an angel who did not fall but presents himself to God among the heavenly host, the answer is of course yes

DId Satan play a part in Job’s sufferring?

Also a definite yes – Satan is the direct cause of everything that befell Job.

 

[Spirithound]

Would you agree that Job is being tested by God? Would you agree that Job lost everything due to God’s will? Did Satan play a part in God’s will? DId Satan play a part in Job’s sufferring?

(I do not believe the Satan character in Job is the same as the devil; rather, I believe he is an angel of God whose function is that of a prosecutor against humanity)

My interpretation of the story is that Satan is the one doing the testing; however, it’s with God’s approval and consent – and, as angels are without free will, God is therefore complicit.

I don’t agree with Mirdath’s idea that Satan is an angel of God. The holy angels do not test humanity. Angels are also equipped with the faculty of free will. When we say that angels can’t sin, it’s like saying that someone could never kill someone. Technically it’s possible, but because of their spiritual makeup, it would never happen. God approved of Satan’s plan to test Job’s faith, but God is not “complicit”. “Complicit” has negative connotations, and everything God does is for our good. Therefore, this situation is allowed under God’s permissive will, and is for Job’s sanctification.

So, to answer Tony, God is allowing Job to be tested, God is not taking an active role. Yes, Job lost everything due to God’s permissive will. Satan did not influence God’s will, but he did unwittingly participate in Job’s sanctification. Yes, Satan was the principal in Job’s suffering.

 

[Mirdath]

I don’t agree with Mirdath’s idea that Satan is an angel of God. The holy angels do not test humanity. Angels are also equipped with the faculty of free will. When we say that angels can’t sin, it’s like saying that someone could never kill someone. Technically it’s possible, but because of their spiritual makeup, it would never happen. God approved of Satan’s plan to test Job’s faith, but God is not “complicit”. “Complicit” has negative connotations, and everything God does is for our good. Therefore, this situation is allowed under God’s permissive will, and is for Job’s sanctification.

I’ll admit I based that more on a literary than a spiritual interpretation. Satan presents himself with the other angels, speaks to God as if he is a functionary or underling with a specific job to do, and does not act without God’s approval. Further, the word ‘satan’ is a title – it means ‘accuser’, like a prosecuting attorney. Based on that I believe that the Satan of Job is distinct from the Christian devil.

I believe the angels are supposed not to have free will according to Catholic teaching, and I don’t know where I’d start looking for that specific information (other than Milton). Could you provide a source?

And I’d disagree that the events of the book are for Job’s sanctification. God already considers Job his good and holy servant – it is to set an example for the rest of us, and to prove to the satan that people can remain holy even while God is not directly supporting and favoring them.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

And I’d disagree that the events of the book are for Job’s sanctification. God already considers Job his good and holy servant – it is to set an example for the rest of us, and to prove to the satan that people can remain holy even while God is not directly supporting and favoring them.

Job’s further sanctification

 

[Spirithound]

I’ll admit I based that more on a literary than a spiritual interpretation. Satan presents himself with the other angels, speaks to God as if he is a functionary or underling with a specific job to do, and does not act without God’s approval. Further, the word ‘satan’ is a title – it means ‘accuser’, like a prosecuting attorney. Based on that I believe that the Satan of Job is distinct from the Christian devil.

I believe the angels are supposed not to have free will according to Catholic teaching, and I don’t know where I’d start looking for that specific information (other than Milton). Could you provide a source?

And I’d disagree that the events of the book are for Job’s sanctification. God already considers Job his good and holy servant – it is to set an example for the rest of us, and to prove to the satan that people can remain holy even while God is not directly supporting and favoring them.

I agree that according to a literary analysis of the book, your interpretation of Satan being an angel with the office of prosecutor looks valid. I do believe, however, that we can make a judgement on the role God may intend the book of Job to play for us in our spiritual lives. It appears to be an extended parable.

My source for angelic free will is CCC 311. “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love.”
What this is referring to, is the time that a being exists before entering the final reward (heaven or hell). Since the good angels are in heaven, they are not in danger of losing salvation, however that is because of the nature of heaven, and the intensity of the Infinite Goodness that is God, rather than a defective will on the part of the inhabitants of heaven.

Certainly Job is meant to be an example for the rest of us, but I agree with the previous poster that he could always stand to be further sanctified.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

When you read the Bible always read it with Christ in mind. Job’s suffering was a foreshadowing of the true righteous, and only righteous man to walk the Earth, Jesus. Satan sought to destroy Job as he sought to destroy Jesus. Job overcame Satan which symbolized Jesus destroying Satan [Death] as read in Isaiah 53:

5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7 Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,

God used Job to show us Christ.

 

[Mirdath]

I do believe, however, that we can make a judgement on the role God may intend the book of Job to play for us in our spiritual lives. It appears to be an extended parable.

It’s a parable with many themes. One is that true holiness does not depend on receiving favors from God. Another is that it is foolish to question God’s will. A third, somewhat less uplifting theme, is that God can and will use people as pawns to prove a point.

My source for angelic free will is CCC 311. “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love.”
What this is referring to, is the time that a being exists before entering the final reward (heaven or hell). Since the good angels are in heaven, they are not in danger of losing salvation, however that is because of the nature of heaven, and the intensity of the Infinite Goodness that is God, rather than a defective will on the part of the inhabitants of heaven.

Thanks I was sure I had it from somewhere that angels lack free will after the war in heaven – no idea where that came from though. Still, the angels that remain in heaven obviously do God’s bidding.

 

[slowbutfaithful]

Hello,

     In discussion with a friend, he mentions that in the Book of Job that God ALLOWS Satan to kill Job's wife.... I don't recall reading this....  did I miss something?  any advice?

      Our discussion continues.....

      Would you agree that Job is being tested by God?  WOuld you agree that Job lost everything due to God's will?  Did Satan play a part in God's will?  DId Satan play a part in Job's sufferring? 

        I have my thoughts but I would like to see yours.

Tony B – Find a copy of “Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence,” by Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint -Jure, S.J. and St. Claude de la Columbiere, S.J. It was originally published under the title, “The Secret of Peace and Happiness”, but has been re-published with the new title.

It’s a fantastic meditation on how pain, suffering and other apparent evils can, in fact, be God’s will. They frequently cite Job’s plight, but always return to his fortitude in faith: "The Lord has given, and the Lord has taken away; as it has pleased the Lord, so is it done.’