Book of Mormon and honey bees

[Rbt_Southwell]

It may seem like pretzel logic, when you’re only used to sour dough.

Paul

I have yet to come across ‘official’ or ‘unofficial’ mormon documents which add anything new or change anything from the Bible and Tradition in the Early Church.

We have asked for proof from you RMs (Roamin’ Mormons) on these boards and all we get is a weak attempt at wit.

Quit loafing around.

The more I read mormon ‘scripture’ the more I am impressed with the image of a vague idea in search of purchasing authority at an Islamic bazaar with the small change of Protestantism in its pocket.

“Jesus and Lucifer are brothers” Pshaw!

“God and Mary were as husband and wife” Ptooie!

Robert

 

[Paul_G]

I have yet to come across ‘official’ or ‘unofficial’ mormon documents which add anything new or change anything from the Bible and Tradition in the Early Church.

That’s good to hear; that’s the point.

We have asked for proof from you RMs (Roamin’ Mormons) on these boards and all we get is a weak attempt at wit.

Sorry, for me it’s hard to take you serious with comments like “pretzel logic” “Roamin’ Mormons”.

Quit loafing around.

Quit telling what us what we believe, and ask a serious question

The more I read mormon ‘scripture’

Good for you. Keep it up

the more I am impressed with the image of a vague idea in search of purchasing authority at an Islamic bazaar with the small change of Protestantism in its pocket.

Oh I get it; it’s your offering of a weak attempt at wit. Touché.

“Jesus and Lucifer are brothers” Pshaw!

We can’t prove they were; you can’t prove there not. So what if we believe it. …Pshaw?..

“God and Mary were as husband and wife” Ptooie!

Do you really believe we teach this in our meetings? The only time I read this is in dusty old books and places like this, which leads me to question the reason you mention it Ptooie? …hummmm sounds like something the French put on their french fries.

Sorry. I’m just in a playful mood tonight. You have a good one.

Paul

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Quit telling what us what we believe, and ask a serious question

Fair enough, Paul.

Here are a few questions to clear the misunderstanding between Christianity and Mormonism:

1. Do Mormons believe God to have a human body?
2. Do Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer to be brothers?
3. Do Mormons believe in becoming gods like Jesus or God?
4. Do Mormons have proof of what is alleged in the BoM concerning America pre 1000 AD? And what is that proof?
5. Is the BoM the inerrant Word of God (this planet’s, of course)?
6. If inerrant, then why has the BoM been changed so much over the past 130 years?
7. If not inerrant, then how do Mormons justify its ‘authority’?

Gee, Paul, do you think I could get some answers within the next few days?

Whenever I ask your missionaries these (and other questions), they tell me I will hear from their ‘bishop.’ This has happened three times since moving north to Sacramento in the past 6 months and I have yet to hear from anyone

Thanks

Robert

 

[Paul_G]

Fair enough, Paul.

Here are a few questions to clear the misunderstanding between Christianity and Mormonism:

ok?

1. Do Mormons believe God to have a human body?

No

1. Do Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer to be brothers?

Yes

1. Do Mormons believe in becoming gods like Jesus or God?

Perhaps in the eons future we may attain to be like them but never will be equal to them. We are all commanded to strive be like our Father in Heaven.

1. Do Mormons have proof of what is alleged in the BoM concerning America pre 1000 AD? And what is that proof?
   What would you except as proof?

1. Is the BoM the inerrant Word of God (this planet’s, of course)?

1. If inerrant, then why has the BoM been changed so much over the past 130 years?

1. If not inerrant, then how do Mormons justify its ‘authority’?

First of all we do not attribute either authority or inerrancy to the book of Mormon. You’ll have to talk to the Evangelicals about this concept.

Gee, Paul, do you think I could get some answers within the next few days?

This is a bit condescending isn’t’ it. I don’t think it necessary.

Whenever I ask your missionaries these (and other questions), they tell me I will hear from their ‘bishop.’ This has happened three times since moving north to Sacramento in the past 6 months and I have yet to hear from anyone

It is difficult to comment on an anecdotal personal experience.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

More specifically, do Mormons believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s”? Please, we’re ready for the meat.
Paul

 

[Paul_G]

More specifically, do Mormons believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s”? Please, we’re ready for the meat.
Paul

From D&C 130:22 we read “The Father has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s; the Son also…” So I’d say we do.

In return, could you show how this belief, however different than yours, would be unacceptable to our Father in Heaven.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

From D&C 130:22 we read “The Father has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s; the Son also…” So I’d say we do.

In return, could you show how this belief, however different than yours, would be unacceptable to our Father in Heaven.

Paul

Your belief that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and is a resurrected man makes the God of the bible a liar. Your disagreement is not with me, Paul, but with Jesus:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - Matt 4:24

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. - Matt 24:39

Mormons believe that God the Father is a resurrected and exalted man who once lived on an earth similar to ours, and that he had a father who was also a man. Again, you are in direct conflict with the God of the bible:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent - Num 23:19

That is why we find your belief objectionable - not because is it different from our belief, but because it calls Jesus a liar and the bible false.

Of course, we all know that Mormons do believe that the bible is false. That is part of your problem.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Your belief that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and is a resurrected man makes the God of the bible a liar. Your disagreement is not with me, Paul, but with Jesus:

:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - Matt 4:24

 

[PaulDupre]

PaulDupre;2701712:

Of course, we all know that Mormons do

believe that the bible is false. That is part of your problem.

Perhaps you could show us the parts we believe are false as well.

Paul

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

From The Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

“the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text”
(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg. 53).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

“The early ‘Apostate Fathers’ did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text” (Religious Truths Defined, p.175).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

“Many insertions were made, some of them ‘slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated”
(As Translated Correctly, p.4).
Quote:

“It is evident then that many of the ‘plain and precious’ things were omitted from the Bible by failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion, and by deliberate changes, deletions and forgeries …”
(As Translated Correctly, p.14).

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

"Thus, the elements of mistranslation, incompleteness, and other errors weaken the Bible”
(Encyclopedia of Mormonism , Vol. 1, Bible).

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

Grace to you all,
Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

Grace to you all,
Paul

I guess that is why we are studying the New Testament this year in Gospel Doctrine Class. Corrupt and untrustworthy are your words. Yes there have been things removed or interpreted against the plain meaning in the text. This mind set is clearly shown by the way the priests traveling with the Spanish destroyed every book they came across in the New World. It is also evident as you read the New Testament, that there are additional epistles referred to but are no where to be found, anywhere. For example two epistles to the Corinthians by Paul are referred in his other writings, but are completely missing

The Apostle Peter appeared to have not doubts about what was going on as he was able to see it himself even before he joined our Lord. For example:

*“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” *(2 Peter 3:15-16).

Paul

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I guess that is why we are studying the New Testament this year in Gospel Doctrine Class. Corrupt and untrustworthy are your words.

Yes there have been things removed or interpreted against the plain meaning in the text. This mind set is clearly shown by the way the priests traveling with the Spanish destroyed every book they came across in the New World. It is also evident as you read the New Testament, that there are additional epistles referred to but are no where to be found, anywhere. For example two epistles to the Corinthians by Paul are referred in his other writings, but are completely missing

Paul

Notice that the best defense of a faulty sect (one founded upon deceit and lies) is to attact the one with the most Scriptural authority and basis.

Everyone KNOWS St Paul wrote other letters. In fact, MOST scholars (Catholic, Protestant and Other) agree that some of his letters are cobbled together and may in fact be a summation of his theology and preaching about Christ and the Gospel in the first century AD.

But to Paul it’s evidence of dark and sinister minds at work in a conspiracy to keep “something” from the world.

Well, if Paul wants to provide the ‘missing’ epistles and the ‘true’ teaching of Jesus (mormon god of this planet) then I say we allow him his soapbox to quote from the Book of Mormon.

Honey bees or no honey bees.

What is it, Paul, that is missing from the Message of Jesus that the Mormon church has?

Robert

 

[Paul_G]

Notice that the best defense of a faulty sect (one founded upon deceit and lies) is to attact the one with the most Scriptural authority and basis.

Notice also that Robert just slipped over what Peter had to say about this issue.

Everyone KNOWS St Paul wrote other letters. In fact, MOST scholars (Catholic, Protestant and Other) agree that some of his letters are cobbled together and may in fact be a summation of his theology and preaching about Christ and the Gospel in the first century AD.

So what you are saying is that the scriptures that we hold sacred are cobbled together bits of ideas and writings, you sound more Mormon here than I think that you would like to.

But to Paul it’s evidence of dark and sinister minds at work in a conspiracy to keep “something” from the world.

Not dark and sinister, just human.

Well, if Paul wants to provide the ‘missing’ epistles and the ‘true’ teaching of Jesus (mormon god of this planet) then I say we allow him his soapbox to quote from the Book of Mormon.

Honey bees or no honey bees.

What is it, Paul, that is missing from the Message of Jesus that the Mormon church has?

It is the sound of one hand clapping… grasshopper. A serious inquiry without guile deserves an equally serious answer.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

This is the answer we always get from Mormons - “I won’t answer your question because you didn’t ask it in the way I prefer (it’s not that I don’t have a good answer. No, really, I could answer it any time I want to. I just don’t want to right now, because I don’t like the way you asked. So you don’t deserve to hear my killer answer…yeah, that’s it! You don’t deserve it!)”

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

This is the answer we always get from Mormons - “I won’t answer your question because you didn’t ask it in the way I prefer (it’s not that I don’t have a good answer. No, really, I could answer it any time I want to. I just don’t want to right now, because I don’t like the way you asked. So you don’t deserve to hear my killer answer…yeah, that’s it! You don’t deserve it!)”

]

I have noticed a similar style among all the mormon ‘trolls’ on CA.

Paul G tries it with wit and will quote another poster out of context. He also hits a thread for about 3 or 5 ‘responses’ and then disappears.

Zerinus is argumentative for no point. He tries to find similarities with Catholic belief and use that as justification for mormonism being ‘the true church.’ His approach is to ignore until goaded by other posters and then he goes 0 to 60 in nasty.

whyme is a bizarre case. He claims he has one foot in Catholicism and one in mormonism and tries (in his illogical reasoning style) to show there is NO difference between Christianity and Mormonism. But, like PaulG and Zerinus, he does the mormon shuffle of “ignore, avoid, deflect and counterattack.”

I have been on lds websites. I have tried to ask the fundamental questions about the origins and beliefs of mormonism.

The answers are either: burning-in-the-bosom or “I-have-it-from-the-Holy-Spirit.”

Never a direct answer for a direct question.

Such dissemblance, such anti-intellectual feints, such sad and confused (good) people.

Keep praying for their wandering souls, everyone!

Robert

 

[Paul_G]

]

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I guess that is why we are studying the New Testament this year in Gospel Doctrine Class. **Corrupt and untrustworthy are your words. Yes there have been things removed or interpreted against the plain meaning in the text. **

This mind set is clearly shown by the way the priests traveling with the Spanish destroyed every book they came across in the New World. It is also evident as you read the New Testament, that there are additional epistles referred to but are no where to be found, anywhere. For example two epistles to the Corinthians by Paul are referred in his other writings, but are completely missing

Paul

Here you go, Paul. Start with this assertion. Which words were “changed” to promote which doctrine?

It is easy to claim the “proof” was destroyed, ergo, no evidence to contradict.

Isn’t this like those golden tablets and seer stones and other mormon claimed paraphenalia??? No proof, just mere assertions.

I wasn’t aware that the Incans and Aztecs and Mayans had ‘books’ which were destroyed by “priests traveling with the Spanish.”

Is there a source other than a book published by BYU Press or Deseret or another mormon-owned interest with primary sources
supporting your claims?

Who do you think, Paul G, kept the scrolls which Antiquities scholars have translated into Spanish and then other languages?

Who do you think learned the local languages and transcribed the traditions and beliefs and mythology of those native peoples of the Americas?

They were Jesuit priests at first and then came the Franciscans.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling. Do your homework.

Robert

 

[Paul_G]

Here you go, Paul. Start with this assertion. Which words were “changed” to promote which doctrine?

The words I used were “removed or interpreted against the plain meaning in the text.” Perhaps you could address the Apostle Peter’s statement that I gave you on the subject. It appears as thought he was well aware of this problem. I don’t know what Peter had in mind, but for me the so called concept of the trinity jumps out at me right off the bat for starters.

It is easy to claim the “proof” was destroyed, ergo, no evidence to contradict.

I think that was the idea

Isn’t this like those golden tablets and seer stones and other mormon claimed paraphenalia??? No proof, just mere assertions.

Yet, the text remains

I wasn’t aware that the Incans and Aztecs and Mayans had ‘books’ which were destroyed by “priests traveling with the Spanish.”

“We found a great number of books and since they contained nothing but superstitions and falsehoods of the devil we burned them, which they took most grievously, and which gave them great pain.” (Friar Diego de Landa, 1566)

Is there a source other than a book published by BYU Press or Deseret or another mormon-owned interest with primary sources
supporting your claims?

Sorry I didn’t research this in any LDS books. This information is readily available on the internet if you so choose to look for it.

Who do you think, Paul G, kept the scrolls which Antiquities scholars have translated into Spanish and then other languages?

Who do you think learned the local languages and transcribed the traditions and beliefs and mythology of those native peoples of the Americas?

They were Jesuit priests at first and then came the Franciscans.

I would expect that people have to understand you, and you them if you are converting them from their traditional beliefs to yours. However, I direct you to the quote above by Diego de Landa as to what the attitude toward these beliefs where.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling.

I guess you have your reason for saying this

Do your homework.

You show me you homework. I’ll show you mine…… wait a minute. I did.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

and will quote another poster out of context.

Rbt Southwell, Still waiting for an answer for out of context remark, not what assertion I have made

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

“We found a great number of books and since they contained nothing but superstitions and falsehoods of the devil we burned them, which they took most grievously, and which gave them great pain.” (Friar Diego de Landa, 1566)

Friar Diego de Landa did not contribute to the content of the Bible, nor remove anything from it. He lived more than a thousand years after the Bible was put together. He had nothing to do with the Bible, other than his belief in it. So what is the point here, exactly?