Book Of Mormon Evidences In Ancient America

[JLFuller]

Nice pious words for someone who has not been a victim of persecution by Mormons. It is impossible, once branded as a danger to the LDS community, to live an adequately virtuous life. Particularly when one has no idea why. The wagging tongues will make up whatever lies they can, to justify what they are doing.

Please take care not to set me off any more. Like they say, this is the core of the matter.

And all the responsibility is not on the victim. The responsibility weighs heavily on that LDS community and the LDS church as a whole.

It isn’t impossible Jerusha, just very difficult. The first thing is to drop the nastiness and adopt a positive attitude. I know it is simple to say and hard to do especially if you are really angry. You know anger is of Satan and not of Christ. You can do it though. You just have to decide to do it. You have to decide that nothing outside you is going to control you and that you choose to make the inside of you a peacful loving place where there is no room for anger or bitterness. It can be done and the miracle of it is it can happen quickly - almost over night in many cases. It just depends on how strong you decide to be and how badly you want it. You can show to people who want to know, that you are not a pariah and never were by becoming more Christ-like and more loving. Those who don’t know of your past will never suspect. Do you remember the story of the scarlet letter the story by Nathaniel Hawthorne? It works Jerusha - it really does. I have seen it work first hand and it is a miracle.

 

[Jerusha]

Thank you for your more compassionate response this time.

I still have the right to self-protection. I am not an Ammonite. The less said about THAT, the better.

 

[PaulDupre]

I can see now why you are so bitter. If I can, may I suggest that the bitterness just makes it harder on you and yours and that it really works if you forgive the SP. There is no way you can ever get even. Trying just adds stress to you and your family.

I’m not angry or bitter with the stake pres or the bishop, I just accept it for what it is. And I’m not trying to get even with anyone. It was a very long time ago. I am just defending the Catholic faith against the constant assaults against it by Mormons. That necessarily entails pointing out the fallacies within Mormon teachings and scriptures when those are used to attack the true church of Christ.

Though I must say that after we left, we were treated shamefully by those we once considered friends. They spread horrible rumors about us, everything from alcohol and drug addiction to marital infidelity.

I have since learned that this is SOP in Mormonism. It seems that simply disagreeing is not a sufficient explaination for why someone leaves Mormonism.

 

[JLFuller]

I knew of a young woman who suffered greatly because of her identity crisis. She tried to make the pain go away with drugs and alcohol but eventually killed herself. She chose to drink and drug even when she had a way out. She would not drop her self loathing and blaming others.

I also know of a young man whose drug and alcohol use was so bad that he put his eye out while injecting in his temple. He decided to change. He didn’t want to die a drunk or dope addict. He did his time, came back sober, went to college and eventaully earned a masters degree. He worked his way up throught he ranks until he became the programs administrator for a state Department and eventually became a speaker for the the US Dept. of Justice travelign around the country doing training for Federal and state authorities on treatement programs for inmates and convicts.

Both people made their choices and both happened at the same time. Both took about the same amount of time to arrive at their respective tipping points. Both had access to the same resources. It took about the same amount of time for each to achieve what was the end for one and the beginnig for the other. Both were outcasts in their communities and both had no self esteem or faith in themsleves or others. Yet one died and the other didn’t. One chose to fail and the other chose to succeed. If I had been ask in the beginning who I thought would be the success and who would not I would have chosen the woman for several reasons and I would have been wrong. There are no absolutes Jerusha unless you choose to create one.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I knew of a young woman who suffered greatly because of her identity crisis. She tried to make the pain go away with drugs and alcohol but eventually killed herself. She chose to drink and drug even when she had a way out. She would not drop her self loathing and blaming others.

I also know of a young man whose drug and alcohol use was so bad that he put his eye out while injecting in his temple. He decided to change. He didn’t want to die a drunk or dope addict. He did his time, came back sober, went to college and eventaully earned a masters degree. He worked his way up throught he ranks until he became the programs administrator for a state Department and eventually became a speaker for the the US Dept. of Justice travelign around the country doing training for Federal and state authorities on treatement programs for inmates and convicts.

Both people made their choices and both happened at the same time. Both took about the same amount of time to arrive at their respective tipping points. Both had access to the same resources. It took about the same amount of time for each to achieve what was the end for one and the beginnig for the other.

:ehh: Thank you for demonstrating so clearly what LDS believe of their former members + Jerusha.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, they think the very worst of “apostates”. Witness the hateful diatribes against us by zerinus on these forums.

My older brother, who converted to LDS at the same time I did, warned me that if I left the church I would end up dead in the gutter. This is a common belief among LDS - that all apostates wind up dead in the gutter. I periodically remind him that I have been out of Mormonism for 23 years and I’m still gutter-free.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, they think the very worst of “apostates”. Witness the hateful diatribes against us by zerinus on these forums.

My older brother, who converted to LDS at the same time I did, warned me that if I left the church I would end up dead in the gutter. This is a common belief among LDS - that all apostates wind up dead in the gutter. I periodically remind him that I have been out of Mormonism for 23 years and I’m still gutter-free.

Yes, but have you poked your eye out with a needle?

 

[JLFuller]

I’m not angry or bitter with the stake pres or the bishop, I just accept it for what it is. And I’m not trying to get even with anyone. It was a very long time ago. I am just defending the Catholic faith against the constant assaults against it by Mormons. That necessarily entails pointing out the fallacies within Mormon teachings and scriptures when those are used to attack the true church of Christ.

Though I must say that after we left, we were treated shamefully by those we once considered friends. They spread horrible rumors about us, everything from alcohol and drug addiction to marital infidelity.

I have since learned that this is SOP in Mormonism. It seems that simply disagreeing is not a sufficient explaination for why someone leaves Mormonism.

Not everyone Paul. I will bet that today you could even go back to your old SP and he would greet you warmly. That is the way SPs are. Sometimes circumstances require they do things they do not want to do. Time and distance change people. I once had a kid I sent back to prison. While sitting in the court room awaiting his hearing before the judge, he came over to me and asked what I thought was going to happen to him. I said I thought he was going to prison to serve his sentence and that it was my recommendation that he do so. He kind of looked at the floor and said that was too bad because I was the best friend he had. I image that was so knowing what I know about him. The state hired me for a reason and I had to do what I had to do and the kid went away for three years as I recall. That didn’t mean I would not help him or do what I could in anyway I could. I think I even asked for his case back when he paroled. I don’t recall if I got it but I didn’t personalizehis bad behavior and he didn’t hold a grudge for me. It was just one of those things that had to be done. He didn’t get better though. I don’t know if he is even still alive. He married an LDS girl but she went sideways too. It was about choices. Its always about choices.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not everyone Paul. I will bet that today you could even go back to your old SP and he would greet you warmly. That is the way SPs are. Sometimes circumstances require they do things they do not want to do. Time and distance change people. I once had a kid I sent back to prison. While sitting in the court room awaiting his hearing before the judge, he came over to me and asked what I thought was going to happen to him. I said I thought he was going to prison to serve his sentence and that it was my recommendation that he do so. He kind of looked at the floor and said that was too bad because I was the best friend he had. I image that was so knowing what I know about him. The state hired me for a reason and I had to do what I had to do and the kid went away for three years as I recall. That didn’t mean I would not help him or do what I could in anyway I could. I think I even asked for his case back when he paroled. I don’t recall if I got it but I didn’t personalizehis bad behavior and he didn’t hold a grudge for me. It was just one of those things that had to be done. He didn’t get better though. I don’t know if he is even still alive. He married an LDS girl but she went sideways too. It was about choices. Its always about choices.

Are you for real? I’m starting to think I am in a parody and should be

We all have made it Home, not a half-way house.

 

[JLFuller]

Yes, they think the very worst of “apostates”. Witness the hateful diatribes against us by zerinus on these forums.

My older brother, who converted to LDS at the same time I did, warned me that if I left the church I would end up dead in the gutter. This is a common belief among LDS - that all apostates wind up dead in the gutter. I periodically remind him that I have been out of Mormonism for 23 years and I’m still gutter-free.

Yeah I have ranted too. I correct myself when I do or try to. You don’t see that as much as you would have a while back. It just makes me feel bad. I think one person rants someone else comes online and sees it and gets all pushed out of shape and jumps in too. That is how Satan wouild have us do it I think. Only he wins that way. Its a lot better just bearing it with a grin and try to be polite and add something positive. I like it when I am constructive and learning something. I don’t like beating up on someone else. It is demeaning for both of us.

I have to tell you Paul when I was a a parole officer I liked the convicts better than the administrators because I always knew a convict was going to be a convict and I understood them. They knew I was always going to be what I was and they could always depend on me being that way. Convicts even had a name for it. They called REspect - emphasis on the RE. So when a convict acted like a convict I knew it wasn’t personal. When I went on the yard at the joint I had inmates come up and talk to me just like we were old friends. We weren’t old friends - we just knew each other we knew what to expect.

 

[Jerusha]

LOL I wrote a long response. But I think I will hold it.

I have not drank for more than twenty-five years. The only drug abuse I have been involved in much more time than that was Paxil, on a Doctor’s prescription which enabled me to accept the abuse I was going through.

More rational people would have dipped into their kids ritalin. I was so exhausted from nightmares all night long that people thought I was partying.

No one should have to endure what I went through.

And I have NO criminal record. And never will ,unless Brighamite bigots manufacture one for me. Which I would not be surprised if they tried to.

 

[JLFuller]

LOL I wrote a long response. But I think I will hold it.

I have not drank for more than twenty-five years. The only drug abuse I have been involved in much more time than that was Paxil, on a Doctor’s prescription which enabled me to accept the abuse I was going through.

More rational people would have dipped into their kids ritalin. I was so exhausted from nightmares all night long that people thought I was partying.

No one should have to endure what I went through.

You are right there. Now you are out of it sounds like. Good.

 

[JLFuller]

Hey Jerusha and Paul. How about this. You call me when you see me acting out of line and I will do the same for you. Maybe all three of can help each other out of the crankie dept when we get sideways. Just say “Hey brother Fuller - you doing OK?” I will know what you mean.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, but have you poked your eye out with a needle?

Not yet, but these threads get me pretty close!

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Did you know that traditional Christianity has used the pentagram as a Christian symbol? Did you know that the swastika was taken from Hinduism? Does that make Hindus nazi’s? And what of the Christianization of some Pagan/Celtic deities? Symbolism is not interpreted at face value.

Yes, traditional Christians did use a pentagram that was right side up, not upside down!!! there are symbolic meanings and sublime messages in symbols that not many people think about! People do not think about how much the devil uses symbolism. Think about it, it is something that hardly anyone pays attention too. The Devil would not be able to decieve many people if he didn’t use hidden symbolism. Hidden symbolism isn’t good! The reason Catholics have symbols (which all represent good, nothing to be determined) because it is a very old Church (about 2000 years old!) and along time ago people who knew how to read were very few and in between, unless you were rich, so they had to use symbols in order for people to know it was a place of worship. Think about it, if your temple was built, the way it is now, back 2000 years ago, do you think people would think it was a place of God or Pagans?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram
“A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates.”[10] “Let us keep the figure of the Five-pointed Star always upright, with the topmost triangle pointing to heaven, for it is the seat of wisdom, and if the figure is reversed, perversion and evil will be the result.”[11] upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Inverted_pentacle.PNG/120px-Inverted_pentacle.PNG

Another pentagram from Agrippa’s book. This one has the Pythagorean letters inscribed around the circle.

crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html http://www.crossroad.to/images/Symbols/symbol19.jpg**PENTACLE****or PENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing up): A standard symbol for witches, freemasons, and many other pagan or occult groups. To witches, it represent the four basic elements (wind, water, earth and fire) plus a pantheistic spiritual being such as Gaia or Mother Earth. The pentagram is also “used for protection. to banish energy, or to bring it to you, depending on how it’s drawn,” wrote a Wiccan visitor. Compare with the next link. http://www.crossroad.to/images/Symbols/pent-invert.gifPENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing down): **Used in occult rituals to direct forces or energies. Often represents satanism, the horned god or various expressions of contemporary occultism, especially when a goat-head is superimposed on the inverted pentagram within a “sacred” circle. See Heartagram, Baphomet and Pentagrams and Pentacles

 

[PaulDupre]

Are you for real? I’m starting to think I am in a parody and should be

We all have made it Home, not a half-way house.

Now he’s comparing me to a juvenile delinquent. Unbelievable. I am not traumatized by what happened to me. I just chalk it up to people who are deeply misguided, not evil. It was a great education, though.

I also want to point out that were it not for my sojourn through Mormonism, I would not be the Catholic that I am today. My 11 years in Mormonism, and especially my mission, was a very formative experience for me.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Yes, traditional Christians did use a pentagram that was right side up, not upside down!!! there are symbolic meanings and sublime messages in symbols that not many people think about! People do not think about how much the devil uses symbolism. Think about it, it is something that hardly anyone pays attention too. The Devil would not be able to decieve many people if he didn’t use hidden symbolism. Hidden symbolism isn’t good! The reason Catholics have symbols (which all represent good, nothing to be determined) because it is a very old Church (about 2000 years old!) and along time ago people who knew how to read were very few and in between, unless you were rich, so they had to use symbols in order for people to know it was a place of worship. Think about it, if your temple was built, the way it is now, back 2000 years ago, do you think people would think it was a place of God or Pagans?

To add to this, there is no excuse why these symbols should be on your building. Just because a long time ago you think it was for the good. I pray that y’all will have the grace to see through this one day! I really do. I know you wouldn’t be allowed to think or believe you would inherit a universe, but isn’t just being with God in heaven enough?

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, traditional Christians did use a pentagram that was right side up, not upside down!!! there are symbolic meanings and sublime messages in symbols that not many people think about! People do not think about how much the devil uses symbolism. Think about it, it is something that hardly anyone pays attention too. The Devil would not be able to decieve many people if he didn’t use hidden symbolism. Hidden symbolism isn’t good! The reason Catholics have symbols (which all represent good, nothing to be determined) because it is a very old Church (about 2000 years old!) and along time ago people who knew how to read were very few and in between, unless you were rich, so they had to use symbols in order for people to know it was a place of worship. Think about it, if your temple was built, the way it is now, back 2000 years ago, do you think people would think it was a place of God or Pagans?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram
“A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates.”[10] “Let us keep the figure of the Five-pointed Star always upright, with the topmost triangle pointing to heaven, for it is the seat of wisdom, and if the figure is reversed, perversion and evil will be the result.”[11] upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Inverted_pentacle.PNG/120px-Inverted_pentacle.PNG

Another pentagram from Agrippa’s book. This one has the Pythagorean letters inscribed around the circle.

crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html http://www.crossroad.to/images/Symbols/symbol19.jpgPENTACLE****or PENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing up): A standard symbol for witches, freemasons, and many other pagan or occult groups. To witches, it represent the four basic elements (wind, water, earth and fire) plus a pantheistic spiritual being such as Gaia or Mother Earth. The pentagram is also “used for protection. to banish energy, or to bring it to you, depending on how it’s drawn,” wrote a Wiccan visitor. Compare with the next link. http://www.crossroad.to/images/Symbols/pent-invert.gifPENTAGRAM (FIVE-POINTED STAR pointing down): Used in occult rituals to direct forces or energies. Often represents satanism, the horned god or various expressions of contemporary occultism, especially when a goat-head is superimposed on the inverted pentagram within a “sacred” circle. See Heartagram, Baphomet and Pentagrams and Pentacles

I’ll tell you, I don’t get bent out of shape about symbols - especially on old buildings. Being a history buff, I understand that symbols get recycled through different cultures and religions and their meanings morph into this and that and more often than not the meanings are very subtle. In the end, you just have to take a symbol as signifying what the people who use it now thinks it signifies.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yeah I have ranted too. I correct myself when I do or try to. You don’t see that as much as you would have a while back. It just makes me feel bad. I think one person rants someone else comes online and sees it and gets all pushed out of shape and jumps in too. That is how Satan wouild have us do it I think. Only he wins that way. Its a lot better just bearing it with a grin and try to be polite and add something positive. I like it when I am constructive and learning something. I don’t like beating up on someone else. It is demeaning for both of us.

I have to tell you Paul when I was a a parole officer I liked the convicts better than the administrators because I always knew a convict was going to be a convict and I understood them. They knew I was always going to be what I was and they could always depend on me being that way. Convicts even had a name for it. They called REspect - emphasis on the RE. So when a convict acted like a convict I knew it wasn’t personal. When I went on the yard at the joint I had inmates come up and talk to me just like we were old friends. We weren’t old friends - we just knew each other we knew what to expect.

I think you should stop comparing us to felons and delinquents. I am neither and it’s getting old real fast.

 

[Jerusha]

If it weren’t for my experience with Mormons, I would not be the Catholic that I am today.
Through the refiner’s fire.

When I think of the negative personality characteristics–passivity, letting others violate my boundaries, self- blame, forgive and forget attitude, denial, bulling my way through by myself without recruiting support resources (although I tried) ---- that led into the situation----