Book of Mormon Evidences?

[teancum79]

I’m no metallurgists but is not steel the combining of Iron a reasonably common metal and carbon one of the most common substances known. Now the common image of the large scale steel workers mill clearly would not have been present but a small operation is not imposable.

As to roads there are many roads that are very old all over Mezzo America.

Bodies and bones tend to decay particularly if they are in a humid area with lots of animals.

As for the plates they are not around, but several persons did see them and have singed statements to that fact.

 

[majick275]

I’m no metallurgists but is not steel the combining of Iron a reasonably common metal and carbon one of the most common substances known. Now the common image of the large scale steel workers mill clearly would not have been present but a small operation is not imposable.

As to roads there are many roads that are very old all over Mezzo America.

Bodies and bones tend to decay particularly if they are in a humid area with lots of animals.

As for the plates they are not around, but several persons did see them and have singed statements to that fact.

iron isn’t found just laying around waiting to be made into steel. iron ore has to be mined, then you have to smelt it. that just gives you basic iron. making that into steel gets really involved but i want to point out that smelting isn’t simple and it leaves a pretty large body of evidence. the BoM doesn’t leave us with the possibility of this being a small operation either. it describes vast battles of huge armies equipped with steel.

 

[Jerusha]

a tiny handful of exceptions were made inthe early LDS church but they were clearly individual exceptions for specific reasons and required a “prophet” to approve.

And those specific reasons could be reduced to skin color. How light were those early “black” converts? Were they even light enough to pass for white?

 

[teancum79]

iron isn’t found just laying around waiting to be made into steel. iron ore has to be mined, then you have to smelt it. that just gives you basic iron. making that into steel gets really involved but i want to point out that smelting isn’t simple and it leaves a pretty large body of evidence. the BoM doesn’t leave us with the possibility of this being a small operation either. it describes vast battles of huge armies equipped with steel.

Some large battles yes. How many of those in a battle had steel weapons it does not say. If a group has access to steel, but only in small amounts (as would be likely) than only the leaders and wealthy would have the supper weapons and others would make do with more available though not as strong weapons.

The only battle that specify says they where fighting with steel swords is in the book of Ether that could easily be 1500 ish BC

While steel can hold up to rust for awhile I don’t think 3000 years of humidity wind and rain would leave a whole lot and if it did leave much.

 

[majick275]

smelting leaves very noticeable traces that don’t go away and the BoM mentions more battles than just that with metal. you are grasping at straws. the boM describes all kinds of steel after the jaredites. 2 nephi 5:15, jarom 1:8, mosiah 9:16, mosiah 10:8, alma 2:12, 43:18-20, 43:37-38, 44:8, 44:17, helaman 1:14, and that’s just the steel weapons/armor. that doesn’t even get into chariots and iron works.

 

[teancum79]

smelting leaves very noticeable traces that don’t go away and the BoM mentions more battles than just that with metal. you are grasping at straws. the boM describes all kinds of steel after the jaredites. 2 nephi 5:15, jarom 1:8, mosiah 9:16, mosiah 10:8, alma 2:12, 43:18-20, 43:37-38, 44:8, 44:17, helaman 1:14, and that’s just the steel weapons/armor. that doesn’t even get into chariots and iron works.

Did you even read the sections you referenced?

Yes the BoM says that they had some chariots (though they are not mentioned often and the references I’m aware of involved royalty, so it does not mean large scale use) It does not say they where made with steel. Most of the places where weapons are mentioned steel is not. This may be a shock to you (considering what your last post implies, but you can make swords out of things other than steel).

 

[majick275]

Did you even read the sections you referenced?

Yes the BoM says that they had some chariots (though they are not mentioned often and the references I’m aware of involved royalty, so it does not mean large scale use) It does not say they where made with steel. Most of the places where weapons are mentioned steel is not. This may be a shock to you (considering what your last post implies, but you can make swords out of things other than steel).

i;ve read the whole book many times. it describes the swords. it is clear they are steel. macahuitls don’t rust. the BoM describes cultures that are rich in metals of all types. it does not describe any known precolumbian civilization.

 

[teancum79]

i;ve read the whole book many times. it describes the swords. it is clear they are steel. macahuitls don’t rust. the BoM describes cultures that are rich in metals of all types. it does not describe any known precolumbian civilization.

So please for my benefit of those who are not so well versed where does it describe the swords as all being made of steel?

 

[Holly3278]

don’t fall for it. JS allowed elijah abel to be ordained. the official doctrine of the LDS church is that black people are descendants of cain and as such had to wait until the lord said it was okay to receive the priesthood. a tiny handful of exceptions were made inthe early LDS church but they were clearly individual exceptions for specific reasons and required a “prophet” to approve.

Interesting. I did not know that. That is shocking that they required their “prophet” to allow it. I personally am not the least bit convinced by the Mormon church anymore.

 

[why_me]

don’t fall for it. JS allowed elijah abel to be ordained. the official doctrine of the LDS church is that black people are descendants of cain and as such had to wait until the lord said it was okay to receive the priesthood. a tiny handful of exceptions were made inthe early LDS church but they were clearly individual exceptions for specific reasons and required a “prophet” to approve.

Not true. According to the presentation other african males were ordained into the priesthood which was quite a thing back then in the state of Missouri. We need to remember that Missourians were not exactly without racisim.

To my knowledge one african american male began to talk plural wives without authorization. This caused tremendous problems especially if these wives were white. He was disciplined for doing so. I do believe that this may have influenced BY later when he became prophet. America was a racist society and in the lds church whites and blacks worshipped together in the same chapel. Look at history and you will probably see that this was unique for the christian faith, especially where the early saints were settled.

 

[ralphinal]

Not true. According to the presentation other african males were ordained into the priesthood which was quite a thing back then in the state of Missouri. We need to remember that Missourians were not exactly without racisim.

To my knowledge one african american male began to talk plural wives without authorization. This caused tremendous problems especially if these wives were white. He was disciplined for doing so. I do believe that this may have influenced BY later when he became prophet. America was a racist society and in the lds church whites and blacks worshipped together in the same chapel. Look at history and you will probably see that this was unique for the christian faith, especially where the early saints were settled.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: the first integrated Church was the CAtholic Church starting in 33 A.D. No one else can claim the title.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not true. According to the presentation other african males were ordained into the priesthood which was quite a thing back then in the state of Missouri. We need to remember that Missourians were not exactly without racisim.

To my knowledge one african american male began to talk plural wives without authorization. This caused tremendous problems especially if these wives were white. He was disciplined for doing so. I do believe that this may have influenced BY later when he became prophet. America was a racist society and in the lds church whites and blacks worshipped together in the same chapel. Look at history and you will probably see that this was unique for the christian faith, especially where the early saints were settled.

So, you are saying segregated priesthood of BY was cultural, and not prophetic? If so, this is revisionist history, as the practice was taught as mormon doctrine. Also, the removal of the practice is claimed as prophetic as well. Certainly, I believe it was cultural pressure. I never thought I would hear that as the official mormon apologetics stance.