Book of Mormon Evidences

[dosdog]

Here is an interesting discussion about what one critic of the lds church found to be compelling evidences for the book of mormon. Again he is not mormon. But an interesting discussion took place on the mormonapologetic board.

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=28359

Adair’s History of the American Indians
worldcat.org/wcpa/ow/ce21720246e085a9.html
Adair, James Originally published in 1775

Elias Boudinot (1740-1821)
A star in the West or, A humble attempt to discover the long lost ten tribes of Israel, preparatory to their return to their beloved city, Jerusalem.
The Second Advent, or coming of the Messiah in glory shown to be a Scripture doctrine, and taught by divine revelation, from the beginning of the world
by Elias Boudinot Language: English Type: Book : Microform
Publisher: Trenton, N.J. : D. Fenton & S. Hutchinson, 1815.
directtextbook.com/author/elias-boudinot
worldcat.org/wcpa/ow/128e55e54631b184a19afeb4da09e526.html

View of The Hebrew (i.e. BOM)
Ethan Smith’s book is largely a compilation of material from the works of other writers, particularly James Adair and Elias Boudinot

Both books argue that the American Indians are descendants of the Hebrews

Both books relate the discovery of buried records

Both books refer to inspired prophets and describe objects resembling the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate of the Hebrew high priest

Both books refer to written characters similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs

Both books claim that the Indians were separated into civilized and barbarous cultures and that the civilized people were exterminated by the barbarous Indians

Both books emphasize the destruction of Jerusalem, refer to the scattering and restoration of Israel, quote frequently from Isaiah, and claim that American Gentiles are to play an important role in restoring the Indians back into the house of Israel

Both books condemn pride and seeking of riches, and both praise the virtues of the Indians.

Both books describe the appearance of an important person on the American continent – Christ and Quetzalcotl

In addition, Ethan Smith discusses only one theory about the migration of people to the Americas. He holds that they took a northward journey across Asia to the Bering Strait and then spread southward. Adair mentions this theory once
But the parallels actually testify to the fact that the Book of Mormon agrees with many of the popular theories and speculation of the day
mormonstudies.com/author1.htm

 

[why_me]

And if one reads the thread from the mormon apologetic site I posted on # 41, one will soon see that there is no name calling or direct attacks on a person’s religion. It is just a good discussion between lds and critics with soren the catholic posting good comments without hostility from the mormons.

Can this site copy such peace and tranquility? I don’t think so!

 

[dosdog]

And if one reads the thread from the mormon apologetic site I posted on # 41, one will soon see that there is no name calling or direct attacks on a person’s religion. It is just a good discussion between lds and critics with soren the catholic posting good comments without hostility from the mormons.

Can this site copy such peace and tranquility? I don’t think so!

Can You guys ever stop knocking on my door?

PS do not rape my soul when i am dead
to posthumously baptize a Jew or any other religion is to rape his soul.
deseretnews.com/dn/print/1,14…037136,00.html

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Let me put it this way: If the book of mormon can be proven true, for example, a coin is discovered with the word Nephi on it or Mormon on it, would you believe in the lds church? I think so. It would confirm the book true. Many exmos would return to the fold and the world would be topsy turvy for awhile. And many would believe in christ not because of faith but because of fact. And this would not be god’s plan.

What will happen I think is that certain facts will come to light but these facts can also be interpreted as conjecture. It will always depend on faith. Such is how god works.

The bible has a story but its divinity is based on faith. No signed witnesses to testify to its truthfulness and yet, geographically confirmed. The book of mormon has a story taken from gold plates seen by 11 witnesses but it is based on faith also. No proof that it is absolutely true.

What you said in red is bogus reasoning. If you are saying no coins have been found then that HURTS your claims, not helps. Of COURSE we would be bound to consider the BoM if some coins turned up because it would be a historical confirmation at LEAST worth investigating. Coming out and saying there is no historical evidence is to saw off the very branch which supports you.

As for the actual plates, where did they go? Why werent they brought out for public inspection or at least preserved by a faithful family until a museum could take them or something?

 

[why_me]

As for the actual plates, where did they go? Why werent they brought out for public inspection or at least preserved by a faithful family until a museum could take them or something?

If they would have been shown to the public, god’s work would have been thwarted by mormon reasoning. First, such a discovery as JS related it complete with an angel visitation would have destroyed faith and put religion on a different basis. We are on this earth to live faithfully, trusting in god and believing that there is a god. It can not be based on fact but on faith.

The plates were taken away by an angel. Sounds crazy but no more crazy than apparitions of Mary, right?

 

[why_me]

What you said in red is bogus reasoning. If you are saying no coins have been found then that HURTS your claims, not helps. Of COURSE we would be bound to consider the BoM if some coins turned up because it would be a historical confirmation at LEAST worth investigating. Coming out and saying there is no historical evidence is to saw off the very branch which supports you.

As for the actual plates, where did they go? Why werent they brought out for public inspection or at least preserved by a faithful family until a museum could take them or something?

There has been certain evidences as I posted on the jeff lindsay site. However, such evidences will always leave open the door for conjecture.

 

[dosdog]

If they would have been shown to the public, god’s work would have been thwarted by mormon reasoning. First, such a discovery as JS related it complete with an angel visitation would have destroyed faith and put religion on a different basis. We are on this earth to live faithfully, trusting in god and believing that there is a god. It can not be based on fact but on faith.

The plates were taken away by an angel. Sounds crazy but no more crazy than apparitions of Mary, right?

Fatima
And at that time Jesus declared, “I thank thee, father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
Evidence:
-Drastic phenomena of the sun witnessed by 70,000 at the moment predicted
-Raining, the dark rain clouds “drew apart like curtains” to reveal the sun
-Instantly after the “miracle of the Sun” all the people who moments early were soaked and slopping through muck up to their knees were clean and dry, and the ground was dry also.
-The three children withstood all the tests and threats of adverse authorities and the sole survivor, now over 80 years later still testifies to this event, living in a cloistered convent
-Two of the three children died shortly after as prophesied
-One was unburied decades later and found not decayed. As they carried the incorrupt body to the local church in ceremony the church bells rang. The bells were encased in the church tower, locked because of disrepair, and inaccessible to any human.
-The prophecies of the vision included WWII and the downfall of Russia
-The prophecies predicted the “aurora” of 1938 which signaled the beginning of WWII

pdtsigns.com/fatima.html

 

[Marc1152]

And if one reads the thread from the Mormon apologetic site I posted on # 41, one will soon see that there is no name calling or direct attacks on a person’s religion. It is just a good discussion between lds and critics with soren the catholic posting good comments without hostility from the mormons.

Can this site copy such peace and tranquility? I don’t think so!

I think not.

Mormons very much want to be accepted as just another Christian religion. They don’t want to be seen as a cult ( who does?) but desire to level the playing field.

That ground should never be ceded over to them. They should be located correctly on the radar screen. Anything less helps them to lead innocent people into perdition. We must be just as concerned about dangers to souls as we are to flesh.

Mormons knock on doors and try to get people to apostasize from Christianity… Therefore the hand of ecumenism should not be offered to them.

 

[Jerusha]

Adair’s History of the American Indians
worldcat.org/wcpa/ow/ce21720246e085a9.html
Adair, James Originally published in 1775

Elias Boudinot (1740-1821)
A star in the West or, A humble attempt to discover the long lost ten tribes of Israel, preparatory to their return to their beloved city, Jerusalem.
The Second Advent, or coming of the Messiah in glory shown to be a Scripture doctrine, and taught by divine revelation, from the beginning of the world
by Elias Boudinot Language: English Type: Book : Microform
Publisher: Trenton, N.J. : D. Fenton & S. Hutchinson, 1815.
directtextbook.com/author/elias-boudinot
worldcat.org/wcpa/ow/128e55e54631b184a19afeb4da09e526.html

View of The Hebrew (i.e. BOM)
Ethan Smith’s book is largely a compilation of material from the works of other writers, particularly James Adair and Elias Boudinot

Both books argue that the American Indians are descendants of the Hebrews

Both books relate the discovery of buried records

Both books refer to inspired prophets and describe objects resembling the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate of the Hebrew high priest

Both books refer to written characters similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs

Both books claim that the Indians were separated into civilized and barbarous cultures and that the civilized people were exterminated by the barbarous Indians

Both books emphasize the destruction of Jerusalem, refer to the scattering and restoration of Israel, quote frequently from Isaiah, and claim that American Gentiles are to play an important role in restoring the Indians back into the house of Israel

Both books condemn pride and seeking of riches, and both praise the virtues of the Indians.

Both books describe the appearance of an important person on the American continent – Christ and Quetzalcotl

In addition, Ethan Smith discusses only one theory about the migration of people to the Americas. He holds that they took a northward journey across Asia to the Bering Strait and then spread southward. Adair mentions this theory once
But the parallels actually testify to the fact that the Book of Mormon agrees with many of the popular theories and speculation of the day
mormonstudies.com/author1.htm

Yes, dosdog, if I ever get around to completing my research project, those details will be included. In addition, Buck Watie, an accomplished Cherokee newspaper editor who knew Elias Budinot so well that he took his name, could be the person who wrote about pre-Columbian American history, possibly as a part of the struggle against relocation (The Trail of Tears). This is possibly the origin of the best of the Book of Mormon.

Coins have been found, but their origin is European, coined AFTER 980 AD

 

[zerinus]

I think not.

Mormons very much want to be accepted as just another Christian religion. They don’t want to be seen as a cult ( who does?) but desire to level the playing field.

That ground should never be ceded over to them. They should be located correctly on the radar screen. Anything less helps them to lead innocent people into perdition. We must be just as concerned about dangers to souls as we are to flesh.

Mormons knock on doors and try to get people to apostasize from Christianity… Therefore the hand of ecumenism should not be offered to them.

We are aware of that; but have our ways of “leveling the playing field”. We do that by informing the world that Christianity is apostate, and the LDS Church is a restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ. It works very well because it is true, and people can see that.

zerinus

 

[Marc1152]

We are aware of that; but have our ways of “leveling the playing field”. We do that by informing the world that Christianity is apostate, and the LDS Church is a restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ. It works very well because it is true, and people can see that.

zerinus

If you say so. Take you best shot… Please note that the Mormon tone of debate is far harsher than the posts from Christians as evidenced above.

I think people are attracted to Mormonism to gain the warm fuzzes that come from being part of a community. I don’t thing the “Informing” part is the key. I doubt very much that people read their way into Mormonism.

For example, in the Eastern Church ( and the Roman Church too I am certain) whenever a person comes to us with the “Apostate” slander, we enjoy that conversation very much . Those who make it are just repeating a myth and cant back it up. We simply use the writings of the Early Church Fathers and compare them to what the Church teaches today… It is a good way for us to gain converts because the facts are pretty clear once you actually do some research .

I also think some of the offers Mormonism makes to converts like the ability to rule over your own planet is not very wholesome. It actully sounds rather demonic in nature. Just my opinion.

 

[why_me]

I think not.

Mormons very much want to be accepted as just another Christian religion. They don’t want to be seen as a cult ( who does?) but desire to level the playing field.

That ground should never be ceded over to them. They should be located correctly on the radar screen. Anything less helps them to lead innocent people into perdition. We must be just as concerned about dangers to souls as we are to flesh.

Mormons knock on doors and try to get people to apostasize from Christianity… Therefore the hand of ecumenism should not be offered to them.

The point is not ecumenism but civility and the ability to discuss without harsh language. On the lds apologetic site, this is done as that thread demonstrates. There is also a thread about EWTN. No one has attacked that station yet on the thread.

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=29065

What apologetic site is more christian?

 

[adrift]

The point is not ecumenism but civility and the ability to discuss without harsh language. On the lds apologetic site, this is done as that thread demonstrates. There is also a thread about EWTN. No one has attacked that station yet on the thread.

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=29065

What apologetic site is more christian?

The site is very nice however you are not comparing fairly.

It has 4793 registered members with 7 forums only four of those are active the other 3 are archived.
CA has 63,284 registered members with 12 forums with only one archived. At the time I viewed it, there were only 40 viewing as opposed to CA 338. It didn’t seem that there were to many non LDS posting. I didn’t see the LDS attacked. I do not know if criticism of LDS would get the poster booted. Like I said it is unfair of you to compare the two since they do not have the same volume nor do they have the same type of forums.

 

[why_me]

The site is very nice however you are not comparing fairly.

It has 4793 registered members with 7 forums.
CA has 63,284 registered members with 11forums. It didn’t seem that there were to many non LDS posting. I didn’t see the LDS attacked. I do not know if criticism of LDS would get the poster booted. Like I said it is unfair of you to compare the two since they do not have the same volume nor do they have the same type of forums.

The more mocking posters will get suspended or banned. If I begin to attack the pope as JS is attacked here, I would get suspended, in my opinion. And if I didn’t clean up my act, I would get banned. If you read the site the more respecting critics can have their say. The board would fail without the critics. But if there are more critics than lds, I do think that some critics would be culled. The problem with the board is that the regular members have heard all the critics opinions. Nothing surprising. It can get boring.

I would never attack the catholic church since I go to Mass and respect the nuns and the priests that I have contact with. But I can not let the critics on this site just have their say about the lds church. The information that they get are just from antimormons from the internet. If they would read Richard Bushman and his Rough Stone Rolling book and get more information from differing sources I think that the catholic critics would be more balanced.

 

[majick275]

The one that best promotes Christian truth. Mormonism has no proof to offer. Jeff Lindsay throws out irrelevant observations and then tries to link that through pure speculation to end up with a “it could have happened” type of attempted plausibility. Zerinus is correct when he says that the LDS want to inform everyone that all other churches are apostate. The LDS have no evidence of this everyone who investigates can see that there is evidence that anything resembling the current LDS church existed amongst early Christians. Thus they try to emotionally appeal to people to pray and then they will try to convince you that whatever feeling you get after praying means that they are true. (feel good? that’s the holy ghost witness, feel bad? that’s satan trying to stop you from the truth, feel confused that’s the stupor of thought…it’s prophesied by Joseph Smith, feel nothing…that’s peace…it’s a sure sign) I wonder if whyme offers “civility” to the FLDS polygamists, or Satanists? there is a point at which politacla correctness is counterproductive. whyme may think God is not sectarian and doesn’t care what church you join (a position not shared by the Catholic church OR the LDS) but would appear to counter to scripture, tradition and logic. I do not think it unChristian or wrong in any way to state that Mormonism is a false religion that was invented by men. If there is a specific point that you want to debate about regarding “evidence” of the BoM I will gladly and civilly tell you why I believe that it cannot support the historicity or divine influence claimed by the LDS for that book.

No one here is saying that mormons are bad as a people. they are teaching false doctrine though and aggressively seek to spread heresy and lure the unwary away from the saving grace of true sacraments. that must be opposed. NOT by violence certainly but through denouncing the false teachings and promoting correct doctrine.

the mormon apologetics board does not in my opinion even attempt apologetics. It consists of mormons bearing their testimony, mormons pretending to be investigators asking softball questions and appearing impressed by the reponses and an occasional protestant attempting to “witness” to mormons. If you think it is a good place for you to find answers then by all means go there. But obviously you find something missing or you wouldn’t be here. I am hoping that God is leading you to truth and here you will find your way to full communion with God’s one, holy Catholic church. God bless you.

 

[majick275]

Oh…about Joseph Smith… we only tell the truth. He was a bad man and you don’t need “antimormon” sources to discover that. Mormon sources reveal the same truth until they are suppressed for not being “faith promoting”. Why do you think so many LDS historians have been exed? if you want to discuss bad popes please do. we don’t need to avoid the truth to promote our beliefs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There has been certain evidences as I posted on the jeff lindsay site. However, such evidences will always leave open the door for conjecture.

Lindsay provides evidence only of his ability to conjure red herrings and other logical fallacies.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think not.

Mormons very much want to be accepted as just another Christian religion. They don’t want to be seen as a cult ( who does?) but desire to level the playing field.

That ground should never be ceded over to them. They should be located correctly on the radar screen. Anything less helps them to lead innocent people into perdition. We must be just as concerned about dangers to souls as we are to flesh.

Mormons knock on doors and try to get people to apostasize from Christianity… Therefore the hand of ecumenism should not be offered to them.

That, and the so-called peace and tranquility is nothing but a mind numbing round of passive aggressive make believe.

 

[why_me]

That, and the so-called peace and tranquility is nothing but a mind numbing round of passive aggressive make believe.

:banghead: :hypno: :console:

 

[why_me]

Lindsay provides evidence only of his ability to conjure red herrings and other logical fallacies.

:kissme:

Really??