Book of Mormon foolishness--Jaredite ships

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Do you think you would be allowed to preach that from the pulpit of a Mormon Church? Or even write about it publicly? At some point I realized I wouldn’t be allowed to publicly express that view and wound up leaving the LDS Church.
I could get in trouble if I preached it from the pulpit, but intellectual Mormons have these kinds of discussions all the time amongst themselves (in *Sunstone Magazine *and Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, for example).

There is tolerance for my view, the Church just asks that I keep it out of official meetings. Even the pertinent temple recommend question asks only “Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?” The literalness of things like the Book of Mormon-as-history are not asked when any sort of “worthiness” is being determined. I’ve never even had someone ask.

Book of Mormon historicity isn’t a frequent topic of discussion in official meetings, so there is little conflict.
 
😉 I knew why you took the name “Sunstone” for a reason. I always enjoyed the old one in the Nauvoo park. Welcome.
 
does anyone really think an OP title like “Book of Mormon foolishness” will win any hearts or minds? Hmmm
 
I don’t believe the Book of Mormon presents a literal history.
You might want to tell ParkerD. In another thread he was trying to show that it could “plausibly” be by presenting the lack of evidence in a DNA study in another thread. 😉
 
Read this:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_Translation_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

Why is the JST different from the Book of Mormon?
Main article: Joseph Smith Translation as a restoration of the original Bible text
The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible is not, as some members have presumed, simply a restoration of lost Biblical text or an improvement on the translation of known text. Rather, the JST also involves harmonization of doctrinal concepts, commentary and elaboration on the Biblical text, and explanations to clarify points of importance to the modern reader. (See main article on the nature of the JST for a more detailed discussion.)

Thus, the Book of Mormon is likely a relatively “tight” translation of the Nephite records, with the focus on the important differences between the Nephite textual tradition and the Masoretic text.

By contrast, the JST comes from a more prophetically mature and sophisticated Joseph Smith, and provides doctrinal expansion based upon additional revelation, experience, and understanding.

It is important to remember that Joseph did not consider one ‘translation’ of anything to be perfect or ‘the final word.’ Joseph had indicated that Moroni quoted Malachi to him using different wording than the KJV (See Joseph Smith History 1:36–39). However, when Joseph quoted the same passage years later in a discussion about vicarious baptism for the dead, he said:

I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other-and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism. for the dead.(D&C 128:18.)
Thus, to Joseph, the adequacy of a translation depended upon the uses to which a given text will be employed. For one discussion, the KJV was adequate; for others, not. A key element of LDS theology is that living prophets are the primary instrument through which God continues to give knowledge and understanding to his children. Scriptures are neither inerrant, nor somehow “perfect,” but are instead produced by fallible mortals. Despite this, because of current prophets and the revelation granted each individual, the writings of past prophets are sufficient to teach the principles essential for salvation. Additional revelation is sought and received as required.

An Example
There is a great example of this kind of difference in the Lord’s prayer. Compare the following:

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (Book of Mormon).
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (KJV Bible).
And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil (JST Bible).
The JST changes the statement to passive voice whereas the KJV Bible and the Book of Mormon are in active voice. According to E. W. Bullinger, this particular scripture contains a Hebraism, namely, “active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said do.” Consequently, Bullinger interprets the passage this way: “Lead us not (i.e., suffer us not to be led) into temptation.” [7]

Adam Clarke agrees with Bullinger. He wrote this scripture means “‘Bring not in,’ or ‘lead us not into.’ (This is a mere Hebraism. God is said to do a thing which He only permits or suffers to be done).” [8]

In Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament we read the same interpretation. “This phrase then must be used in the sense of permitting. Do not suffer us or permit us, to be tempted to sin. In this it is implied that God 'has such control over us and the tempter, as to save us from it if we call on him.” [9]

When properly considered, this passage is an example of where the JST reading and the KJV/Book of Mormon are both correct. The KJV and Book of Mormon are literal interpretations while the JST is an interpretive translation that is also correct.
WOW it must of taken several twisting lawyers days to come up with this baloney… Joseph Smith claimed he translated the BOM by the gift and power of God not by his own power or by mans often flawed power. THE GIFT AND POWER OF GOD. The BOM itself claims that it was necessary because many plain and precious parts had been taken from the KJV. Surprise, Surprise Joseph Smith forgets to put the plain and precious parts in the BOM but waits for the JST to bring them forward. You have got to be kidding right. Let’s get honest here. Any honest observer is forced to admit Joseph Smith slipped up as all obvious liars and frauds do, and now the LDS church is pulling wild excuses out of the air to try and cover Smiths tracks…
 
Not to be a party pooper again but do you know what percentage of French catholics attend church? Or the percentage of Irish that attend church? Or Italians? I think that it is very low in those european countries. Most religious faiths have retention problems these days. It is the secular world making inroads in church attendance. Now for catholics it is a sin not to attend Mass and Masses of Obligation. That may bring some catholics out for Mass.
Perhaps you as usual missed the intent. When in active mormons are asked what religion they are the studies show many no longer believe in Mormonism. The Numbers of of actually professing mormons are dramatically lower then claimed by mormon leaders. The Catholic church on the other hand has inactive members most of whom when asked still claim to be Catholic.
 
Read this:

en.fairmormon.org/Suicide_rate_among_Mormons

en.fairmormon.org/LDS_use_of_antidepressants

Not to be a party pooper here but did you know that Lithuania leads Europe in Suicide? And lithuania is a catholic country. Is catholicism a false religion that leads people to despair? :confused::confused:

I hope not…but using your logic…it would seem so.
I am not sure what study you are referring to, or what percentage of Lithuania is Catholic. Utah however is predominantly Mormon and The studies here in Utah show that Mormons are a very depressed people…
 
I am not sure what study you are referring to, or what percentage of Lithuania is Catholic. Utah however is predominantly Mormon and The studies here in Utah show that Mormons are a very depressed people…
“Pro,”
I suppose you had realized that your two statements here cancel each other out. The latest rough estimate I’ve heard is that Utah is 60% LDS, but as you noted probably about 60% or so of those (or less accoding to you) are active LDS. Add to that the facts that Utah has a high birth-rate and thus a lot of mothers (some of whom are prescribed medications related to post partem depression), a high number of young adults who would tend toward higher medication needs due to still “finding themselves” and not having the natural endorphins “kick in” in their psychology, plus a higher employment rate which means more insurance plans per capita which means more can go to a psychiatrist, plus active Mormons wouldn’t tend to “self-medicate” with alcohol, and you have basically a meaningless statistic with respect to what you attributed the cause to. But that is how a person with an agenda uses statistics, and it is so commonly done as to be expected whenever anyone trots out a statistic to “prove” a point.

How this relates to the book of Ether and the Jaredite example is that one of the reasons for the downfall described in that book is when people conspire with each other to attain some private agenda for personal power or to subject others, and keep their private agenda hidden. This happens in many ways in our society today. It was warned of in Doctrine and Covenants section 89. It was warned of in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:12). We should expect it–no surprise.
 
Mormons work real hard to depress non-Mormons. It is part of the passive-aggressive dynamic Paul refers to.
And adolescents should not be put on anti-depressants, or at least it should be monitored very closely.
 
Rebecca,
I meant that there are no statistics that can be relied upon to figure out what percentage of active LDS could be assumed to use medications related to depression. If such statistics were generated (which would be illegal in today’s world obviously with privacy laws), I would expect from my limited experience that the statistic would perhaps be slightly higher than a national average, but only because of the other three factors I mentioned that would impact such a statistic–more birth mothers, more young adults without endorphins having “kicked in”, and higher employment meaning easier access to psychiatrists thus more tendency toward prescriptions in seeking solutions, brought about by the world of psychiatry that relies on those solutions (some of which do work for many people).
 
Parker, I enjoy your speculations. However, you might profit more from doing some research on why.
 
Rebecca,
I meant that there are no statistics that can be relied upon to figure out what percentage of active LDS could be assumed to use medications related to depression. If such statistics were generated (which would be illegal in today’s world obviously with privacy laws), I would expect from my limited experience that the statistic would perhaps be slightly higher than a national average, but only because of the other three factors I mentioned that would impact such a statistic–more birth mothers, more young adults without endorphins having “kicked in”, and higher employment meaning easier access to psychiatrists thus more tendency toward prescriptions in seeking solutions, brought about by the world of psychiatry that relies on those solutions (some of which do work for many people).
I’ve never read anything about this, not that I’ve read alot about it at all but I don’t remember any reference to it??
 
Rebecca,
I meant that there are no statistics that can be relied upon to figure out what percentage of active LDS could be assumed to use medications related to depression. If such statistics were generated (which would be illegal in today’s world obviously with privacy laws), I would expect from my limited experience that the statistic would perhaps be slightly higher than a national average, but only because of the other three factors I mentioned that would impact such a statistic–more birth mothers, more young adults without endorphins having “kicked in”, and higher employment meaning easier access to psychiatrists thus more tendency toward prescriptions in seeking solutions, brought about by the world of psychiatry that relies on those solutions (some of which do work for many people).
Parker, it is speculation. I am not on board with “it’s the religion”, I don’t buy it. I know too many non-mormons who are depressed and live here, in UT.

I do find it interesting that you leave adult males out of your speculations, altogether.

I do believe there is a greater impact on LDS who do have depression. It is difficult enough living up to all that your religion requires. Nothing less than perfection. Add in an un-healthy mind and it’s a complete train wreck.
 
“Pro,”
I suppose you had realized that your two statements here cancel each other out. The latest rough estimate I’ve heard is that Utah is 60% LDS, but as you noted probably about 60% or so of those (or less accoding to you) are active LDS. Add to that the facts that Utah has a high birth-rate and thus a lot of mothers (some of whom are prescribed medications related to post partem depression), a high number of young adults who would tend toward higher medication needs due to still “finding themselves” and not having the natural endorphins “kick in” in their psychology, plus a higher employment rate which means more insurance plans per capita which means more can go to a psychiatrist, plus active Mormons wouldn’t tend to “self-medicate” with alcohol, and you have basically a meaningless statistic with respect to what you attributed the cause to. But that is how a person with an agenda uses statistics, and it is so commonly done as to be expected whenever anyone trots out a statistic to “prove” a point.

How this relates to the book of Ether and the Jaredite example is that one of the reasons for the downfall described in that book is when people conspire with each other to attain some private agenda for personal power or to subject others, and keep their private agenda hidden. This happens in many ways in our society today. It was warned of in Doctrine and Covenants section 89. It was warned of in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:12). We should expect it–no surprise.
I realize you reject the idea that Utah has the highest rate of depression and has led in anti depressant use for many years. I wouldn’t expect someone who remains mormon regardless of the mountain of evidence proving it is a fraud, to accept any facts putting the mormon world in a bad light. I have no secret agenda, my objectives are clear. I hope to help mormons turn away from the sick and twisted world of mormonism and seek the healing of Christ in his own Catholic church.
 
Well, there’s this:

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090429-stress-map-kentucky-picture.html

However, I did find this:

religionnewsblog.com/18336/utah-antidepressant

Is that the study some folks are referring to here?

I didn’t read the whole thing, but I do wonder if because there are more Mormons in Utah the link was assumed. And, in all fairness, according to the news article, the “study” was from numbers based on prescription orders. According to the article, a “tabulation.” Hardly a study.

But still, why Utah? It appears that the “why” really can’t be answered fully.

(And I’m not one to defend those I feel are heretics, but I do believe in being fair and honest.)
 
“Pro”,
If you get people to listen to you, then they deserve what they get and it is totally fine with me. You provide a welcome sifting process by whatever your tactics end up being. You help the Lord sift for the hearts of those who are “lukewarm”–a very important function.

It is a self-selection process: what do I want in a promised land; am I really willing to study and pray about the journey I need to make, and how do I find truth during that journey? You have evidently found what works for you, and I have certainly found the truths that are soul-satisfying to me which are so much deeper and more fulfilling to my whole soul than any words I have read of yours that your shallow talk (although meaningful to you) is like a kid in a playground to me. It just has no bearing whatsoever for me, though some may love it and applaud it.

So, keep up your efforts, as I know you will based on the consistency I have read in your posts. They provide an important function in God’s plan of sifting the hearts of His children and finding those who really understand the voice of the Spirit versus all the other conflicting and finger-pointing voices in the world. God needs many such heart-sifters taking many different approaches, as that is in keeping with His plan for this world.
 
You know, ParkerD, the same can be said for you. When I read your posts, all I see is rationalization and justification for an insistence on believing what you believe rather than opening your heart and mind to what the truth is. It’s easier, I suppose. Being a Catholic is challenging, yet it is the most simplest, easiest, and fulfilling.

To say that God uses other people to “sift” for open hearts. That is a flaw with your belief. God doesn’t “sift” for those who are open to the Spirit, He wants us ALL to join in communion with Him. He sent His only begotten son so that we ALL may join in His eternal feast in heaven. He is not selective. Who is selective are people who are willing to stay away, people who are willing to believe what they want for their own convenience and justification for their lifestyle. Who is selective and sifting of those who are willing to hear his message is he who wishes to turn people away from God, for those willing to listen to his message are easier to grab.

Remember, or you may not even believe this since it appears that Mormons believe what they want about Jesus, that Jesus told us to be “fishers of men.” Not, “fishers of some men,” or “fishers of those men over there” or “fishers of those men who are willing to listen to you.” No, He said for us to be “fishers of men.” No restrictions, no exclusions. But then again, Mormonism started off with exclusions of black people anyway so I am not surprised of your rhetoric about God “sifting” for a select few.

BTW, I do have to thank you. When I read your posts and Finfrock’s, as well as other protestants’ justifications for staying asleep in their beliefs, I am so grateful that I am Catholic, that I have Truth, and that I don’t have to rationalize my beliefs along with trying to justify it to recruit. It is a special gift, and all we want for YOU is to have that gift, because we want it for ALL men, not just for those who are willing to listen.
 
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