Book of Mormon "Witnesses"

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thephilosopher6

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Here are a series of quotes which may interest some about the supposed Book of Mormon “witnesses”:

“…when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week since in the Stone Chapel…renounced the Book of Mormon…after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city throught [sic] a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of—–—[him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was…"
– Letter from Stephen Burnett to “Br. Johnson,” April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p.2

John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the Book of Mormon, said that he had asked Harris, “Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?” According to Gilbert, Harris “looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.” – EMD 2:548

In 1880, David Whitmer was asked for a description of the angel who showed him the plates. Whitmer responded that the angel “had no appearance or shape.” When asked by the interviewer how he then could bear testimony that he had seen and heard an angel, Whitmer replied, “Have you never had impressions?” To which the interviewer responded, “Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?” “Just so,” replied Whitmer. – Interview with John Murphy, June 1880, EMD 5:63

For source and more information:

 
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Here’s the testimony of the Three Witnesses:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And here is the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

I hope this helps…
 
And all 8 of the witnesses signatures are all the same, why? Why wouldn’t they have signed it themselves if they were given this glorious gift from God? And why is there only 1 witness statement instead of 8? If I were a judge in a court of law and this this statement was brought before me in a case I would laugh and throw it out. Any rational and intelligent person can see that it was made by one person and signed by one person.
 
Apache
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I asked about this at various Mormon forums from several different spinoffs and anti groups. The photo copy your referring to is a printers copy owned by the Community of Christ. I was never able to locate the actual original (if there ever was one).
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Gazelum
The church changed some of the working on one or both of these testimonies. I forget which one and what the word changes were but if you just copy and pasted from the LDS website it’s probably inaccurate.
 
Those who claimed to be Witnesses to the validity of the Book Of Mormon. Bunch of bunk. They all lied. They were witnesses to nothing.
 
I wonder the same thing. I could see them completely disregarding such statements if the quotes had come from a unreliable source but this appears to be a valid source.

In all reality though, it must be difficult to read of the flaws of one’s faith. I suspect many LDS know of the flaws of the claims of Joseph Smith but can’t imagine life outside the LDS community, so they do nothing.
 
They’re total bunk.

Is @Lemuel still rolling around the forums? I imagine he could add something to this discussion…
 
He hasn’t participated since mid January. He isn’t suspended so I’m not sure.
 
Lemuel got tired of some of the comments and voluntary left.
 
That’s too bad.

His apologia against Mormonism was excellent, having been very actively Mormon for so long.
 
I am not Mormon. I have a historical and apologetic interest in Mormonism.

It does no good to state that the witnesses to the plates were lying. Actually, even those who left the LDS Church continued to affirm their testimony. David Whitmer in particular had his testimony inscribed on his gravestone and regarded Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet. So let us not make claims which cannot be historically substantiated. The evidence seems to me to indicate that Joseph Smith himself was sincere, but deceived, and that there was likely demonic involvement. Joseph and his family had been involved in magic before his becoming the founder of Mormonism, and some accounts indicate that this included animal sacrifice to certain spirits.

The best work on the Witnesses comes from Dan Vogel. Here’s the first of two videos dealing with the Witnesses:


Vogel is a naturalist and I disagree with elements of his reconstruction of Joseph Smith, but he knows the primary sources as good as anyone.

Don’t underestimate LDS apologists and scholars. Those who do and confront one unprepared are in for a beating. See the edited volume “The New Mormon Challenge” which is the best apologetic critique of Mormonism I know of. Also, if you are interested in pursuing this, get everything you can published by Signature Books. There is very good scholarship coming out from them. But also read Richard Bushman. Bushman is the preeminent historian of early Mormonism- and a believing Mormon.
 
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Doesn’t the story go that he received the golden plates from the angel following a magical ritual? From what I understand to read the plates he had to use scrying stones.

Plus digging up golden plates doesn’t really seem like God’s style to me. Since when does God make us dig? Doesn’t he usually reveal himself more from the air with the burning bush and on top of a mountain?

Mormons. Fascinating creatures. 🙂
 
There were multiple accounts of how Joseph received the plates, and earlier accounts seem to be more “magical” in nature and less theological, with Moroni as some sort of guardian spirit rather than an angelic messenger from God. Joseph translated the plates with a seerstone without the plates present, the same seerstone he had used while treasure-digging. Now, here’s where I disagree with most folks. The typical view is that Joseph’s history as a treasure-digger demonstrates that he was a fraudster. The problem is that this is anachronistic. Plenty of rural 19th century villages had treasure-diggrers who fully believed they had a real gift. And to speak bluntly, there is evidence that sometimes they, including Joseph Smith, actually did find things with the stone.

There have been experiments done on seerstones, and a small minority of people really do see things. This is not because of an intrinsic power in particular stones. The stone is a catalyst for something else. There was even a case where a woman saw writing in a stone. My view is that the Book of Mormon is a case, like the demonic Seth literature, and the Urrantia Book, of automatic writing. This is why Joseph evidently believed in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon. The evidence of his private writings, including writings he never expected anyone else to read, indicates that he really believed in the reality of his calling. Historical investigations into Smith’s life should begin there.

I do not believe he was really a prophet, nor do I believe the Book of Mormon is historical. But the evidence against him being an intentional fraudster is quite strong.
 
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