Book of Mormon?

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So I was perusing a mormon wesite claiming the manifestations of Christ to the native people of America are actually real, when dealing with the question of whether this is true or not they simply answer by saying that you need to pray to the holy spirit and you’ll get a ‘fuzzy warm’ feeling inside. So, my question is this, is there any real evidence? Were there Christians in the new world when the Europeans came that had not been properly catechised by any human being? Please, show proof that the book is legit.
 
religioustolerance.org/lds_migr1.htm

That’s probably the best website I can present to you. You could easily Google search “The validity of the Book of Mormon,” but you get sites that go both ways.

But, in my opinion and from what I’ve read in some sources, as far as the Native Americans go, they were in no way connected to Jews.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
M0nkey said:
So I was perusing a mormon wesite claiming the manifestations of Christ to the native people of America are actually real, when dealing with the question of whether this is true or not they simply answer by saying that you need to pray to the holy spirit and you’ll get a ‘fuzzy warm’ feeling inside. So, my question is this, is there any real evidence? Were there Christians in the new world when the Europeans came that had not been properly catechised by any human being? Please, show proof that the book is legit.
Click to expand...
Native Americans being a lost tribe of Israel is just one of the many lies that Joe Smith told. There is no truth to be found in the BOM.
 
M0nkey said:
So I was perusing a mormon wesite claiming the manifestations of Christ to the native people of America are actually real, when dealing with the question of whether this is true or not they simply answer by saying that you need to pray to the holy spirit and you’ll get a ‘fuzzy warm’ feeling inside. So, my question is this, is there any real evidence? Were there Christians in the new world when the Europeans came that had not been properly catechised by any human being? Please, show proof that the book is legit.
Click to expand...
First, there is no way you got the words “fuzzy warm” from a MORMON website. That’s a glaring anti-Mormon, demeaning dismissal of a witness from the Holy Ghost, illustrated in the New Testament when the risen Christ appeared to His apostles, and spoke with them, and He 'took bread, and blessed it; and brake, and gave to them…
Luke 24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

This witness of the Holy Ghost is to a ‘warm fuzzy’ feeling what a nova is to a campfire.

Of course, if you CAN give me the URL of the MORMON website that actually said the words 'fuzzy warm," in describing the witness of the Holy Ghost, I’ll apologize. Trouble is, your use of these words is a very large red flag. I wouldn’t, in future, use them if you are claiming to get them from an LDS website.

The proof, by the way, is to be found in Moroni 10, 4-5 (I’m throwing in verse 6 just because it’s one of my favorite scriptures of all time.)

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

We believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture, just as the Bible is scripture. Since that is the claim for it, then the ‘proof’ for it has to come from God, not from historians.

But if you insist, how about showing me some proof that every single incident that happened in the OT actually happened? The parting of the Red Sea? The Garden of Eden? The great Flood?

How about the miracles of Christ’s lifetime? Where is the empirical proof for those?

If you accept those on faith, then you can have no problem with dealing with the Book of Mormon through that lens. If you do not, then…the Book of Mormon is no different.
 
dianaiad said:
First, there is no way you got the words “fuzzy warm” from a MORMON website. That’s a glaring anti-Mormon, demeaning dismissal of a witness from the Holy Ghost, illustrated in the New Testament when the risen Christ appeared to His apostles, and spoke with them, and He 'took bread, and blessed it; and brake, and gave to them…
Luke 24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

This witness of the Holy Ghost is to a ‘warm fuzzy’ feeling what a nova is to a campfire.

Of course, if you CAN give me the URL of the MORMON website that actually said the words 'fuzzy warm," in describing the witness of the Holy Ghost, I’ll apologize. Trouble is, your use of these words is a very large red flag. I wouldn’t, in future, use them if you are claiming to get them from an LDS website.

The proof, by the way, is to be found in Moroni 10, 4-5 (I’m throwing in verse 6 just because it’s one of my favorite scriptures of all time.)

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

We believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture, just as the Bible is scripture. Since that is the claim for it, then the ‘proof’ for it has to come from God, not from historians.

But if you insist, how about showing me some proof that every single incident that happened in the OT actually happened? The parting of the Red Sea? The Garden of Eden? The great Flood?

How about the miracles of Christ’s lifetime? Where is the empirical proof for those?

If you accept those on faith, then you can have no problem with dealing with the Book of Mormon through that lens. If you do not, then…the Book of Mormon is no different.
Click to expand...
well at least we know there IS a red sea and that there was a Pharoah and Egyptians and Israelites. so faith doesn’t require us to go against reason in this case and there may be hard evidence:

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article601300.ece

hard evidence? no…but it’s more than jefflindsay has to go on.

we are told that man was barred form the garden of eden and after the flood one could logically assume that it was “washed away” in the sense of being altered to ordinary earth. circular logic? maybe but then it could be:

Archaeologist Juris Zarins claimed that the Garden of Eden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf, where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers run into the sea at [show location on an interactive map] 29°47′0″N 48°38′0″E / 29.78333, 48.63333, from his research on this area using information from many different sources, including Landsat images from space.[citation needed] In this theory, the Bible’s Gihon River would correspond with the Al-Qurnah in Iraq, and the Pishon River would correspond to the Wadi Al-Batin river system (also now called the Kuwait River) that 2,500-3000 years ago drained the now dry, but once quite fertile central part of the Arabian Peninsula from the Hijaz mountains 600 miles to the South West.

and the great flood?

discovermagazine.com/2007/nov/did-a-comet-cause-the-great-flood

we have Eucharistic miracles and incorruptibles that you can verify NOW:

listverse.com/religion/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/

the problem with the BoM is that it gives us NO verifiable reference points and in fact paints a picture that we can KNOW is different than the civilizations in the required areas. it contradicts what we know to be true. we can also see it’s obvious plagiarism and anachronistic mistakes.
 
dianaiad said:
First, there is no way you got the words “fuzzy warm” from a MORMON website. That’s a glaring anti-Mormon, demeaning dismissal of a witness from the Holy Ghost, illustrated in the New Testament when the risen Christ appeared to His apostles, and spoke with them, and He 'took bread, and blessed it; and brake, and gave to them…
Luke 24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

This witness of the Holy Ghost is to a ‘warm fuzzy’ feeling what a nova is to a campfire.

Of course, if you CAN give me the URL of the MORMON website that actually said the words 'fuzzy warm," in describing the witness of the Holy Ghost, I’ll apologize. Trouble is, your use of these words is a very large red flag. I wouldn’t, in future, use them if you are claiming to get them from an LDS website.

The proof, by the way, is to be found in Moroni 10, 4-5 (I’m throwing in verse 6 just because it’s one of my favorite scriptures of all time.)

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

We believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture, just as the Bible is scripture. Since that is the claim for it, then the ‘proof’ for it has to come from God, not from historians.

But if you insist, how about showing me some proof that every single incident that happened in the OT actually happened? The parting of the Red Sea? The Garden of Eden? The great Flood?

How about the miracles of Christ’s lifetime? Where is the empirical proof for those?

If you accept those on faith, then you can have no problem with dealing with the Book of Mormon through that lens. If you do not, then…the Book of Mormon is no different.
Click to expand...
You are kidding, right?

There is archeological evidence that a great flood did a cure, there is dispute as to if it was totally global or not. The Parting of the Red Sea we know that the Israelite were in Egypt then they were not most kings would do something to prevent the escape of there slaves I have not problem believing the Exodus story. The Miracles of Christ there were Eye witness accounts. they were used against him before the Sanhedrin.

Now the Big difference between the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. the Old testament came to us in full disclosure the BOM was (given to a man that was by himself written in a language that there is no evidence is was ever in use. was never seen by any one than J Smith and once he translated it was taken from him) there is no evidence that any of the people or place mentioned in it have ever been. )

It a nice story but a work of fiction just the same.
 
Large cities leave signs of being there. Iron does not vanish (or was it steel?). The BoM describes huge cities and massive armies that used weapons beyond any tribe in the Americas. In fact, they were beyond their Jewish counterparts as well for the era.
 
M0nkey said:
So, my question is this, is there any real evidence? Were there Christians in the new world when the Europeans came that had not been properly catechised by any human being? Please, show proof that the book is legit.
Click to expand...
dianaiad said:
First, there is no way you got the words “fuzzy warm” from a MORMON website. That’s a glaring anti-Mormon, demeaning dismissal of a witness from the Holy Ghost, illustrated in the New Testament when the risen Christ appeared to His apostles, and spoke with them, and He 'took bread, and blessed it; and brake, and gave to them…
Luke 24:32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

This witness of the Holy Ghost is to a ‘warm fuzzy’ feeling what a nova is to a campfire.

Of course, if you CAN give me the URL of the MORMON website that actually said the words 'fuzzy warm," in describing the witness of the Holy Ghost, I’ll apologize. Trouble is, your use of these words is a very large red flag. I wouldn’t, in future, use them if you are claiming to get them from an LDS website.

The proof, by the way, is to be found in Moroni 10, 4-5 (I’m throwing in verse 6 just because it’s one of my favorite scriptures of all time.)

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

We believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture, just as the Bible is scripture. Since that is the claim for it, then the ‘proof’ for it has to come from God, not from historians.

But if you insist, how about showing me some proof that every single incident that happened in the OT actually happened? The parting of the Red Sea? The Garden of Eden? The great Flood?

How about the miracles of Christ’s lifetime? Where is the empirical proof for those?

If you accept those on faith, then you can have no problem with dealing with the Book of Mormon through that lens. If you do not, then…the Book of Mormon is no different.
Click to expand...
To summarize: Absolutely no proof/evidence whatsoever.
 
I read the BOM with an open mind (I did not get that warm feeling) and I found several things wrong. First of all, I did not through my God given reasoning power out the window and rely on faith alone. In the BOM when Jesus first appeared he identified himself as “Jesus Christ”. In the Bible he never identified himself as such. In fact he never said that He was the Christ. Another thing in the BOM that stuck out like a sore thumb was the chapter that dealt with baptizing of infants. It was very much condemned. No such thing is in the real Bible. In fact the Bible does not address infant baptism. Now listen to this, infant baptism was not an issue until after the Reformation which dates the BOM. God would not address an issue so clearly on one side of the globe while (at the same time period) on the other side of the globe it was never spoken of. Big Blooper. Then in the BOM we have GREAT cities with connecting roads with MILLIONS of people over the entire U.S. When the New World was being explored all they found where the few Indian tribes. The land was pretty much virgin. If there had been these great cities (with steel) archeological evidence would have been overwhelming. Unlike in the Old World of which there is much archeological evidence, the New World had no civilizations which had built over the old. Any Archeological evidence in the New World would have been undisturbed and easy to find. But there was nothing! Of course don’t forget the DNA findings which show no Jewish bloodline in any natives. Honey bees before they were introduced by Europe. And steel being used before its invention.
 
ricko said:
I read the BOM with an open mind (I did not get that warm feeling) and I found several things wrong. First of all, I did not through my God given reasoning power out the window and rely on faith alone. In the BOM when Jesus first appeared he identified himself as “Jesus Christ”. In the Bible he never identified himself as such. In fact he never said that He was the Christ. Another thing in the BOM that stuck out like a sore thumb was the chapter that dealt with baptizing of infants. It was very much condemned. No such thing is in the real Bible. In fact the Bible does not address infant baptism. Now listen to this, infant baptism was not an issue until after the Reformation which dates the BOM. God would not address an issue so clearly on one side of the globe while (at the same time period) on the other side of the globe it was never spoken of. Big Blooper. Then in the BOM we have GREAT cities with connecting roads with MILLIONS of people over the entire U.S. When the New World was being explored all they found where the few Indian tribes. The land was pretty much virgin. If there had been these great cities (with steel) archeological evidence would have been overwhelming. Unlike in the Old World of which there is much archeological evidence, the New World had no civilizations which had built over the old. Any Archeological evidence in the New World would have been undisturbed and easy to find. But there was nothing! Of course don’t forget the DNA findings which show no Jewish bloodline in any natives. Honey bees before they were introduced by Europe. And steel being used before its invention.
Click to expand...
My observation from limited reading was that the BOM just read like a person attempted to emulate the style of the King James Version of the Bible. It’s funny to me that the “plates” or whatever appeared to or were interpreted by Joseph Smith were in archaic English.
 
MOnkey

You can find numerous books, websites and even theads/posts on this forum which provide “evidence” to “prove” either that the Book of Mormon is true or that it is false.

I have been a trial attorney, specializing in civil business litigation, for more than a quarter century. I believe that I know something about what evidence is, where it comes from, and what is its ultimate signifigance.

After years of looking at the “evidence”, whether it is DNA evidence, archeological evidence, liguistic evidence, etc., I confidently conclude two things: First, that there is evidence that the Book of Mormon COULD be true. Second, that there is evidence that the Book of Mormon COULD be false.

When I first got “brainwashed”, as a middle-aged East Coast lawyer, by 19 and 20 year olds from little towns in Utah and Idaho, I was too kind to tell them that their “evidence” moved me not at all. I was also too circumspect to tell them that their faith moved me immensely.

There is no substitute–NONE–for two things. First, read the Book of Mormon. Second, pray to know if it is true, and accept Moroni’s challenge and ask with a sincere heart, and real intent, with faith in Christ. You, like me, can feel that (to some) infamous burning in the bosom that gives faith and certainty as to the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Whatever you decide to do or not do, in response to the above, God bless you.
 
Right, it just happened to be in the form of the King James bible which was the main Protestant bible at that time. I forgot the horses. They had horses in the BOM, yet there were NO horses in the New World at that time until they were brought over from Europe. Then there is all the great battles they had at the end which distroyed everybody. So we got millions of dead with all these STEEL swords and armor and they all disappeared. No bones, no armor, no swords just like they never existed. Now I’m told by the LDS that the reason we don’t believe is because we don’t have faith. Not true. We have faith but we also have REASON. There were and are lots of “groups” that also ask its people to have faith. They are, Heavens Gate, who believed Jesus was behined a comet waiting for them so they all commited suicide. Same with Jim Jones and the Wacko, I mean Waco group. It’s ok to have faith people but don’t give up your reasoning ability.
 
William_M said:
First, that there is evidence that the Book of Mormon COULD be true. Second, that there is evidence that the Book of Mormon COULD be false.
Click to expand...
I could think of proof for the Christian bible in a heart beat, for example, we have records of the dead sea scrolls, the letters of St. Paul, and many other books that were actually written when they claimed to be. This is no matter of faith but reason since speculatives can still bring into question the divinity of Christ which would then be an article of faith. But the authenticity of the book itself is fairly solid. Now, what can you tell me about the book of Mormon? What about archeological records? Perhaps, even findings of early settlers that ran into Christian endemic tribes.

I’m not trying to start an argument or anything, I’m not even soul searching, just have serious and sincere questions.
dianaiad said:
First, there is no way you got the words “fuzzy warm” from a MORMON website.
Click to expand...
I digress, these people mentioned a ‘feeling, instead of thinking’ which to me sounded like a warm fuzzy feeling, but close enough I think. Here is what they actually said, just go through the videos:

mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/how-can-i-know-this-is-true#d
 
majick275 said:
the problem with the BoM is that it gives us NO verifiable reference points and in fact paints a picture that we can KNOW is different than the civilizations in the required areas. it contradicts what we know to be true. we can also see it’s obvious plagiarism and anachronistic mistakes.
Click to expand...
An atheist would laugh himself silly at you.

By the way, who decided what the “required areas” are?
 
dianaiad said:
By the way, who decided what the “required areas” are?
Click to expand...
Are you saying there are no “areas” specificly listed in the Book of Mormon? Not even an area like “The Americas.” I thought the Book of Mormon was a story about -] the Jews/-] some peoples populating -]all /-]some of the Americas.
 
Contemporary writings in the language of the scriptures, that’s one evidence that is found in abundance for the Bible. For the BoM? ZERO.
 
It seems to me that the original poster was just a troll looking to fan the antimormon fire. The thread would best be ignored or the original poster will get their way.
 
When I first got “brainwashed”, as a middle-aged East Coast lawyer, by 19 and 20 year olds from little towns in Utah and Idaho, I was too kind to tell them that their “evidence” moved me not at all. I was also too circumspect to tell them that their faith moved me immensely.
Click to expand...
Can many people not say the same about Muslims? Does that mean that they might be right?
There is no substitute–NONE–for two things. First, read the Book of Mormon. Second, pray to know if it is true, and accept Moroni’s challenge and ask with a sincere heart, and real intent, with faith in Christ. You, like me, can feel that (to some) infamous burning in the bosom that gives faith and certainty as to the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Click to expand...
If it is about being moved internally, why can I not hold the Lord of the Rings as inspired?

I am moved when I watch the Notebook, is it from God?

The whole methodology strikes me as the power of suggestion
 
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