Book of Revelation - Saints

[rben20]

Hey everyone. I was talking with a protestant friend of mine again and we eventually started talking about saints. He had to rethink his position completely after I told him the true way Catholics view saints, but he didn’t want to accept my sources from Revelation since they clearly say the saints take our prayers like offerings of incense to God. He claims that those events in Revelation can’t be accepted scripturally because this “only takes places in the end of times,” so I really didn’t know how to respond. So I guess my question is if Revelation is only written for a certain time and only for certain events? He was using this to debunk praying to saints. I realize there is other Scripture to back praying for saints, but is he right in saying that Revelation somehow doesn’t “count” since it is about “times that haven’t happened yet?” I obviously want to use Revelation to back praying to saints, because its clear in black and white, the Catholic teaching of what saints do and their role in our Church and the family of God.

Also I was confused to learn that his particular “bible church” teaches that all people are saints…very different from the Catholic view that all people are called to be saints, but aren’t officially recognized until the Church affirms what has already been declared in heaven. Thank you all in advance!

 

[NotWorthy]

The Book of Revelation is NOT all about the end times.

St. John is “lifted up in spirit” to heaven and witnesses the heavenly liturgy. But that is a non-sequitor.

What makes your friend think that the saints in heaven can only hear our prayers during the end times? No where does the bible indicate that.

 

[erikd]

Hey everyone. I was talking with a protestant friend of mine again and we eventually started talking about saints. He had to rethink his position completely after I told him the true way Catholics view saints, but he didn’t want to accept my sources from Revelation since they clearly say the saints take our prayers like offerings of incense to God. He claims that those events in Revelation can’t be accepted scripturally because this “only takes places in the end of times,” so I really didn’t know how to respond. So I guess my question is if Revelation is only written for a certain time and only for certain events? He was using this to debunk praying to saints. I realize there is other Scripture to back praying for saints, but is he right in saying that Revelation somehow doesn’t “count” since it is about “times that haven’t happened yet?” I obviously want to use Revelation to back praying to saints, because its clear in black and white, the Catholic teaching of what saints do and their role in our Church and the family of God.

Hi, Rben

I believe that you’re talking about the 24 elders who are holding “bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8) or “and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3) Whether this is considered to happen at the end of times or during the first century, it does happen and cannot therefore be discounted.

As far as your question on the Book of Revelations being written for a certain time, it is a matter of interpretation and different interpretations may be correct, the Church has not infallibly stated one way or the other. Many Scripture scholars believe that the first nineteen chapters of Revelations are written about the first century persecution of Christians. Many of the images we see from St. John can be compared to actual historical events, even names like the number of the beast, six hundred and sixty six or, as some manuscripts mention, six hundred and sixteen, both of which would correlate to the name of Nero, the first century Roman emperor who violently persecuted Christians by murdering them in vast numbers. To say that the entire Book of Revelations is written about the end times may be ignorant of much history that claims otherwise.

 

[NHInsider]

The Book of Revelation is NOT all about the end times.

St. John is “lifted up in spirit” to heaven and witnesses the heavenly liturgy. But that is a non-sequitor.

What makes your friend think that the saints in heaven can only hear our prayers during the end times? No where does the bible indicate that.

I think the friend is suggesting that everything John saw in his vision was in the future. I thnk most of us would believe that what is happening in Heaven is ongoing, not future-only, but if this friend believes that he is supposed to interpret Scripture for himself or that his local pastor’s or favorite author’s interpretation is correct, the discussion won’t go very far.

I obviously want to use Revelation to back praying to saints, because its clear in black and white, the Catholic teaching of what saints do and their role in our Church and the family of God.

You will probably get farther if you get to a point where you can agree that we are all called to pray for one another, and then direct his attention to the words of Jesus “He is God of the living, not the dead” (Mark 12:27) and Paul’s “nothing can separate us from the love of God” (Romans 8:38-39). Thus, since we do not die but simply change, and the Body of Christ is undivided, our call to pray for one another continues in the next life. Also see Hebrews 11-12 “great cloud of witnesses” in which the writer urges us to run well, since all those old testament saints are cheering us on.

Also I was confused to learn that his particular “bible church” teaches that all people are saints…very different from the Catholic view that all people are called to be saints, but aren’t officially recognized until the Church affirms what has already been declared in heaven. Thank you all in advance!

Well, half-way. We are all called to be saints, and when we are in the state of grace, we are saints-on-earth. (I’m guessing his church doesn’t actually say “all people are saints” but that “all Christians are saints” - however they define Christian.) When we die in a state of grace we are saints-in-purgatory (yes, everyone in purgatory has died in a state of grace) or saints-in-heaven. Only a very few of those who have been saved by grace are declared saints by the Church ("upper case “S”, we often say). That is why we celebrate the Feast of All Saints - to honor the many whose faith is known to God alone, as the liturgy says. So I’d suggest you agree with him about the saints on earth - and then ask him why he thinks those saints will stop praying after they die?

 

[COPLAND_3]

Revelation 5 actually happens in John’s time, he was taken up in the spirit and saw what was happening in Heaven in which future things were about to be revealed to him. But even if that happened in the future, it would show that the prayers of saints in Heaven do happen.

 

[rben20]

Thank you for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut. I didn’t know what to say at the time since it had been such a long time since I’ve read the Book of Revelation. I certainly remember reading the incense offering of prayers and the Saints hearing our prayers and offering them to God. It just further shows how Catholic the bible really is Thanks again

 

[losh14]

He had to rethink his position completely after I told him the true way Catholics view saints,

Excellent!

but he didn’t want to accept my sources from Revelation since they clearly say the saints take our prayers like offerings of incense to God. He claims that those events in Revelation can’t be accepted scripturally because this “only takes places in the end of times,” so I really didn’t know how to respond.

Arooo? Is your friend from a dispensationalist background? Does he think there are no saints in Heaven currently? I think your best approach here is to ask him to fully explain (citing Scripture) what he thinks Heaven is like right now.

is he right in saying that Revelation somehow doesn’t “count” since it is about “times that haven’t happened yet?”

Absolutely not. Revelation is not chronological nor literal, and even if it were, the events of Revelation are not solely in the future. Consider the woman in labor in Rev 12, who is pursued by the dragon. Catholics generally consider this to represent Mary (though Protestants dont’ since this implies Mary is our spiritual mother), in which case the Son is Jesus and this is obviously an event that has already occurred by the time Revelation is written. I don’t think it is an error to see the woman as the Church (since she wears the 12 stars of the Apostles and we could consider the male child to still be Jesus, though Jesus made present again and again to each generation of His Brothers and Sisters, ie us), but again the Church has already been founded by the time Revelation is written.

Revelation was written “in code” so to speak to encourage Christians undergoing a terrible persecution under Pagan Rome. It had many eschatological (end times) themes but it also was intended to be an immediate address with an immediate audience. Revelation is as relevant to us today as it was to the 1st century Christians whom John had in mind as primary audience.

Also I was confused to learn that his particular “bible church” teaches that all people are saints…very different from the Catholic view that all people are called to be saints, but aren’t officially recognized until the Church affirms what has already been declared in heaven. Thank you all in advance!

That’s not that unusual among Protestant churches. Really, it’s only a difference in terminology. We call all who believe “the elect” and those whom we call “Saints” are those whose faith is so evident on earth that we believe them to be in Heaven upon their death. So those whom he calls saints we call the elect, and those whom we call saints are just, I guess, super-elect!

 

[Umvard]

Good scriptural support for intersession can be found in Job, at the end of the chapter. God specifically tells some wrong doers to ask Job to pray to God in their stead because Job’s pray is pleasing to God, whereas theirs isn’t.

 

[Bobby_Joe_1]

The first three chapters of the Apocalypse clearly refer to events concerning things going on in the churches in Asia, and are not prophetic or future events.

 

[NHInsider]

The first three chapters of the Apocalypse clearly refer to events concerning things going on in the churches in Asia, and are not prophetic or future events.

It is true that they refer to churches in Asia. Many Protestants think however that the events described are all future. And it is acceptable within a Catholic interpretation to believe that there may be past, current and future applications of the text.

 

[Bobby_Joe_1]

For an exhaustive analysis of Apocalypse, I use Rev. H. B. Kramer’s “The Book of Destiny” ISBN;0-89555-046-6, Tan Books and Publishers. The author took over 30 years to write this over 500 page tome. He offers a verse by verse interpretation. It is well worth the reading.

 

[PJM]

=rben20;6879840]Hey everyone. I was talking with a protestant friend of mine again and we eventually started talking about saints. He had to rethink his position completely after I told him the true way Catholics view saints, but he didn’t want to accept my sources from Revelation since they clearly say the saints take our prayers like offerings of incense to God. He claims that those events in Revelation can’t be accepted scripturally because this “only takes places in the end of times,” so I really didn’t know how to respond. So I guess my question is if Revelation is only written for a certain time and only for certain events? He was using this to debunk praying to saints. I realize there is other Scripture to back praying for saints, but is he right in saying that Revelation somehow doesn’t “count” since it is about “times that haven’t happened yet?” I obviously want to use Revelation to back praying to saints, because its clear in black and white, the Catholic teaching of what saints do and their role in our Church and the family of God.

Also I was confused to learn that his particular “bible church” teaches that all people are saints…very different from the Catholic view that all people are called to be saints, but aren’t officially recognized until the Church affirms what has already been declared in heaven. Thank you all in advance!

So friend; does God ONLY Count in “end-times?” Of course not. Simply because something is written in the bok fortelling end time events; does in no way negate it’s application to events in our current lives.

It seems odd that an entire book of he bible would have applicaion ONLY to those who are on planet earth for the Second Comming. That would mean that it has no merit; no teaching value for the 2,00 years that it’s been in the bible. How silly is that?

Further NO ONE PART OF THE BIBLE CAN CONTIDICT ANOTHER PART OF THE BIBLE.

Love and prayers,