Book recommendations/links for understanding how God who is not subject to change interacts with time

[WesleyF]

Time is a measure of change.

God is outside of time and not subject to change (James 1:17).
God is existence itself (Exodus 3:14).

The question is, how does God who is outside of time and not subject to change interact with time? Here’s the question - God created time, but with the creation of time, material was introduced into existence. That means existence itself changed, which then means that there was a change in God, which is a contradiction. So how is this explained?

I would appreciate some book recommendations/links addressing this issue, or if you know the answer yourself, please answer!

I have heard of this new book by Fr Robert Spitzer called New Proofs For The Existence of God and in it he does deal with the subject of time in an entire chapter called Proof of a Creator of Past Time and that has a section on Proof of a Creator of Past Time Which is Not Itself Conditioned by Time. But I am not sure if this will address my question, so I want some suggestions before I go ahead and buy this book.

 

[WesleyF]

Any recommendations/replies?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Time is a measure of change.

God is outside of time and not subject to change (James 1:17).
God is existence itself (Exodus 3:14).

The question is, how does God who is outside of time and not subject to change interact with time? Here’s the question - God created time, but with the creation of time, material was introduced into existence.

That means existence itself changed, which then means that there was a change in God, which is a contradiction. So how is this explained?

 

[JDaniel]

Time is a measure of change.

God is outside of time and not subject to change (James 1:17).
God is existence itself (Exodus 3:14).

The question is, how does God who is outside of time and not subject to change interact with time? Here’s the question - God created time, but with the creation of time, material was introduced into existence. That means existence itself changed, which then means that there was a change in God, which is a contradiction. So how is this explained?

Welcome to CAF, Wesley:

Let’s take this a piece at a time and think it through. (1) How big is God? If you said, “infinite,” that was correct. (2) If God is infinite, would He have any parts? If you said, “No,” that was also correct. (3) If God has no parts, how would He move? If you said, “He couldn’t,” you would be correct once again. (4) If God is Infinite, where would He move (to)? If you said, “He’s Infinite so there’s no place He could move to,” you’d be correct again.

So, the question of motion, or change, in God is taken care of. God is Immutable. If time is the measure of motion, and God does not move, or change, how would He be related to time? The answer is, He isn’t. Moreover, time is a correlate of motion, not merely a measure of it. Wherever there is motion, i.e., a before and an after, there is time. God does not move, He has no before or after, hence He is not relative to time in any way. Nor does He need to “interact with time” in any way. He created mobile beings, and time was included in the package.

Consider the Now. Usually the Now is thought to be a part of time. But, it isn’t. The Now separates the past continuum of time from the future continuum. Think of the Now as the outermost surface of the past continuum, and the outermost surface of the future continuum. It is a clean separation. It drags none of the past with it, and includes none of the future in it. So, it is clearly not a part, per se, of time. Now consider an Eternal Now. That is God’s Now. This is tough to do, I know. But, how else would the Infinite exist?

I have heard of this new book by Fr Robert Spitzer called New Proofs For The Existence of God and in it he does deal with the subject of time in an entire chapter called Proof of a Creator of Past Time and that has a section on Proof of a Creator of Past Time Which is Not Itself Conditioned by Time. But I am not sure if this will address my question, so I want some suggestions before I go ahead and buy this book.

(Fr. Spitzer’s book is worth the money. I’ve read it almost twice - but just lent it to a Priest friend of mine. So, I’m going to buy another copy.)

Infinite past time can’t exist because there cannot be an actual infinity. Infinity is, by its very nature, indeterminate. If we existed on some sort of infinite continuum, we would not be here now, as it would take an infinite amount of time to arrive at this point in time.

God bless,
jd

 

[WesleyF]

So, the question of motion, or change, in God is taken care of. God is Immutable. If time is the measure of motion, and God does not move, or change, how would He be related to time? The answer is, He isn’t. Moreover, time is a correlate of motion, not merely a measure of it. Wherever there is motion, i.e., a before and an after, there is time. God does not move, He has no before or after, hence He is not relative to time in any way. Nor does He need to “interact with time” in any way. He created mobile beings, and time was included in the package.

But that’s the problem. How does he create then? How does he incarnate? Clearly something changed about God at the Incarnation.

Consider the Now. Usually the Now is thought to be a part of time. But, it isn’t. The Now separates the past continuum of time from the future continuum. Think of the Now as the outermost surface of the past continuum, and the outermost surface of the future continuum. It is a clean separation. It drags none of the past with it, and includes none of the future in it. So, it is clearly not a part, per se, of time. Now consider an Eternal Now. That is God’s Now. This is tough to do, I know. But, how else would the Infinite exist?

:hypno: That means there are infinite such “eternal nows”.

 

[JDaniel]

But that’s the problem. How does he create then? How does he incarnate? Clearly something changed about God at the Incarnation.

Wesley:

No one is absolutely sure, but, I have had conversations with several others, herein. One in particular who’s CAF handle is Yppop. He instigated a thread entitled, “God exists, but how.” At a later time, I started one called, “Space.” They can be found here and here. I encourage you to review them. They have similar content, so I would recommend choosing “Space.” and reading through it.

To give you a short conjecture, since God is infinite, He cannot coexist with anything else that possesses dimensionality. Whatever has dimensionality would displace Him - even if each’s being were different, in my opinion. Therefore, we “exist” as chunks of space delineated by points, Yppop calls “s-points.” Thus,we’re sort of like holograms consisting of lattices of equidistant s-points within which is space. Actually, continuous space, which Yppop calls the Mind of God. We are hologramic “thoughts” in the Mind of God. A “point” is a non-dimensional locus that, as I said, is latticed to other loci (points), and these lattices are immersed in and by continuous space, a/k/a Infinite Space, a/k/a, the Mind of God. We are moved by some sort of algorithm created in the Mind of God.

:hypno: That means there are infinite such “eternal nows”.

No. A Now doesn’t have per se existence. And, a Now, whether finite or infinite, is not a part of time. Our “Now” is a rolling thing that separates the past continuum from the future continuum. An Infinite Now separates no past and no future. It is a sort of duration measure that allows us to render the “Infinite Now” somewhat intelligible to us. We get to participate in a Now of our own which permits us to understand past and future as “before” and “after.”

I hope that was a little less confusing. :hypno:

God bless,
jd