Book: The Facts About Luther

[Jared123]

Jared: re: your study of religion. I’m very impressed. There need to be more people, generally, willing to put in the effort to learn about their religious beliefs.

I guess I’ve run across plenty of people lately who say they are “spiritual” but have a problem with saying they have religious thoughts and ideas.

I had a very profound religious experience about 6 years ago. It sent me on a quest to find the truth. I was Baptist at the time but was blessed to live in a strong Catholic diocese with good orthodox priest. I talked with many preachers and people of several denominations, even went back to my home town and spoke with my old Baptist preacher. All seemed to have a similar but different story. I then spoke to our local parish priest who was right out of the seminary. He was very zealous and willing to evangelize to me about Catholicism. It all added up and made logical sense. I spent two years studying and speaking with orthodox Catholics who truely knew and understood what the Catholic Church teaches. I didn’t come into the Church until I truely believed that Jesus Christ was in the tabernacle.
As far as people saying they are spiritual, I would say this is a good start, but who and what are the source of that spirituality. There is an objective truth it isn’t subjective like many want to believe.

 

[Jared123]

Currently, neither one of my parents belong to a church. They attend a Presbyterean church, but neither one would claim to be Presbyterean (esp. because of the Calvinistic view of predestination). They both realize the “Reformation” began with Luther, but I think they see no where else to go. They won’t go to a Catholic Mass because of what I said before and they won’t become Orthodox because of the liturgy. My dad attends the Divine Liturgy with me sometimes, but he’s not fond of the worship (surprisingly enough, I convinced him that icons are not idols with little trouble and he even bought me my first one!) I try to exolain that the liturgy is not made to make people “comfortable,” but rather to properly glorify God …I continue to try:thumbsup: .

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

What was the bad experience your mother had in the Catholic Church? You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, but this would be where I would start. If it was a bad experience with a priest maybe you can have another priest talk to her?

 

[lak611]

Currently, neither one of my parents belong to a church. They attend a Presbyterean church, but neither one would claim to be Presbyterean (esp. because of the Calvinistic view of predestination). They both realize the “Reformation” began with Luther, but I think they see no where else to go. They won’t go to a Catholic Mass because of what I said before and they won’t become Orthodox because of the liturgy. My dad attends the Divine Liturgy with me sometimes, but he’s not fond of the worship (surprisingly enough, I convinced him that icons are not idols with little trouble and he even bought me my first one!) I try to exolain that the liturgy is not made to make people “comfortable,” but rather to properly glorify God …I continue to try:thumbsup: .

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

I don’t understand why they would even attend a Presbyterian Church if they are not Calvinists. That is one of the key beliefs of Presbyterians.

 

[Alexius]

lak611: What was the bad experience your mother had in the Catholic Church? You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, but this would be where I would start. If it was a bad experience with a priest maybe you can have another priest talk to her?

I don’t understand why they would even attend a Presbyterian Church if they are not Calvinists. That is one of the key beliefs of Presbyterians.

She didn’t have the gospel preached to any extent, the parishioners were not supposed to question the priests, and they were told not to read the Bible because they would get confused. I explained that the latter was wrong of them given what was proclaimed post-Vatican II, but I believe her parish struggled to conform to the demands of that counsil. Her aunt sincerely found Christ outside the Church and left. My mom “followed” her and later so did the majority of the family.

They attend there because (1) Scripture is preached, (2) they know a lot of people there, and (3) they enjoy the traditional worship. The Presbyterean Church my dad grew up in taught free-will as opposed to predestination. Their church (now) has many Calvinists, but there are some who are not (like them).

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[lak611]

The Presbyterean Church my dad grew up in taught free-will as opposed to predestination. Their church (now) has many Calvinists, but there are some who are not (like them).

Wow, I never heard of free-will (or Arminian) Presbyterians. Calvinism pretty much is the be-all end-all of the Presbyterian, Reformed, or Baptist faiths. Although if the majority of the congregation become Calvinists, or the minister starts preaching Calvinism, they may decide to leave. I will pray for your parents that they may return to the Catholic Church. It probably wouldn’t be hard for them to even find a Catholic Bible study nowadays. We have one at my parish. I have been attending for the past five years now. One regular member is a lady who used to be Lutheran and converted to the Catholic Church. She loves Catholic Bible study even better than her old Lutheran Bible study.

 

[Jared123]

1.) Pray the Rosary every day for your parents conversion.

2.) Be a good Catholic example (I assume your Catholic?)

3.) Learn as much about the faith as you can.

4.) Be ready to answer any question they may have.

5.) Leave the rest up to God.

 

[puzzleannie]

Not exactly. But Luther had nothing to do with the split that Henry VIII started.

Lutheranism had everything to do with the split. Whether or not Henry succeeded in imposing his will in England, and the direction the Anglican Church took was definitely influenced by those in the nobility and in the Church who already symathized with Lutheranism, rebellion against hierarchical authority as epitomized in corrupt churchmen like Cardinal Wolsey, and European politics already heavily influenced by the Reformation.

 

[runandsew]

Yes, I read about Luthers upbringing and how his father was horribly abusive, and how he was never good enough for him. He entered the Catholic seminary at 16, basically to get away from his homelife, (don’t think his mom was very good to him either). This idea that Luther had of not being good enough for his dad made him think that he wasn’t good enough for the ultimate dad, (God). So with this being the case how does one get to heaven? Luther mulled over this for years and was completely tormented by this question. He didn’t understand how works played into salvation, so he invented his own theology. This is the basis of Protestant belief. I was born and raised Baptist and was stubborn enough to admit many times I would never become Catholic. Then when I began to study theology I first started by tracing the roots of my Baptist upbring. They ultimately go back to Martin Luther as all Protestans do. Then I Studied what Luther believed and how he came to his conclusions. It wasn’t long before I converted Catholicism. Luther had major mental issues that come out in his works and statements. To not see this is to deny the obvious.

I think the fact that Martin Luther was scared for his life during that lighting storm, and prayed to Mary that if he survived it he would become a priest is very telling about how he made ended up becoming an Augustinian Monk.
In Ken’s tape, he gets all his information and his conclusions from the books that Martin Luther wrote himself. He isn’t all that critical about how bad a man Martin Luther might have been, though he does mention how crude his language was.

In the other cd “John Calvin: Inside the Protestant Mind”
Ken Hensley really goes deep into why the Protestant Reformation happened. There were many factors that made it possible, and Europe ripe for the reformation. He then goes on to say that reformation was desperately needed, but it should have happened from within the Church, not from without.

He says that there were many saintly People at the time that worked from within the church to reform it, and did not find it necessary to leave the church like Martin Luther did.

 

[rr1213]

Lots of things to respond to here, but I’ll keep it brief. The Anglican Church was essentially Protestant almost a century before Cromwell, you’ve skipped alot of years and history there. In doctrine, the Anglican Church started off very Catholic when Henry VIII left the Catholic Church. After Henry, it became more Protestant. With Mary, it was restored to the Catholic fold and the Pope’s jurisdiction. With Elizabeth, you essentially have a compromise. A Church somewhere in the middle between the Calvinists and the Lutherans and, later, between Protestants in general and the Catholic Church. Elizabeth died around 1603. Cromwell didn’t come to power until the 1640s.

Also, there is some fascination with Luther by Catholics. No one, including Lutherans, believe the man was perfect. By attacking his character, you are simply devolving into ad personam attacks. Keep your focus on his teachings.

Also, you should know that apart from Lutherans (who are actually a small segment of the Protestant universe, at least in the US if not in Europe), I don’t see that people dwell on Luther like you Catholics seem to do. In reading these forums, if I didn’t know better, I’d think that we Protestants spend all of our time studying Luther when, in fact, most Protestants seldom give him a thought. We’ve moved on folks…

 

[runandsew]

rr1213
You are right, we need to focus on what he taught, not on his life, after all we are all sinners.
That is why I really enjoyed that CD on Calvin, it really went into why the reformation happened, and if I were around at that time, if I had a choice, it would have been a struggle to make a decision, since it still took the Church a few decades after the reformation took place to reform itself. Unfortunately, whole countries became Protestant, so I don’t think I would have had much to say in the matter in certain situations.

 

[rr1213]

That is why I really enjoyed that CD on Calvin, it really went into why the reformation happened, and if I were around at that time, if I had a choice, it would have been a struggle to make a decision, since it still took the Church a few decades after the reformation took place to reform itself. Unfortunately, whole countries became Protestant, so I don’t think I would have had much to say in the matter in certain situations.

True, the concept of religious liberty didn’t really exist from anyone’s perspective at the time. If your Prince was Catholic, you were Catholic and this was ensured at the point of the sword. If your Prince was Lutheran, you were Lutheran, again ensured by the sword. Same for the Church of England. Perhaps there were some areas of the world that practiced freedom of religion during that time, but I’m not aware of them.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Swan: Those guys’ analysis of Luther is Freudian psyhcobabble dreck! Read these protestant biographers instead! Or this one by a catholic exNazi. Or this one by a catholic who doesn’t seem to notice anything wrong with Luther’s life or work.

catholic exNazi? ummm…the book was written 1916. The Nazi were not even around. Just on that alone you can expunge any credibility of Swan.

BTW. I have the book, but have not read it.

 

[Jared123]

Lots of things to respond to here, but I’ll keep it brief. The Anglican Church was essentially Protestant almost a century before Cromwell, you’ve skipped alot of years and history there. In doctrine, the Anglican Church started off very Catholic when Henry VIII left the Catholic Church. After Henry, it became more Protestant. With Mary, it was restored to the Catholic fold and the Pope’s jurisdiction. With Elizabeth, you essentially have a compromise. A Church somewhere in the middle between the Calvinists and the Lutherans and, later, between Protestants in general and the Catholic Church. Elizabeth died around 1603. Cromwell didn’t come to power until the 1640s.

Also, there is some fascination with Luther by Catholics. No one, including Lutherans, believe the man was perfect. By attacking his character, you are simply devolving into ad personam attacks. Keep your focus on his teachings.

Also, you should know that apart from Lutherans (who are actually a small segment of the Protestant universe, at least in the US if not in Europe), I don’t see that people dwell on Luther like you Catholics seem to do. In reading these forums, if I didn’t know better, I’d think that we Protestants spend all of our time studying Luther when, in fact, most Protestants seldom give him a thought. We’ve moved on folks…

Catholics focus on Luther because he was the founder of the Protestant Reformation splitting off from the universal Church. I agree will you, one should focus on Luthers teachings. When doing so one can’t help but get a glimpse of Luthers mental state. There is a big difference between a person being a sinner and person being mentally unstable who just invented his own theology by interpreting scripture however he felt fit and going as far as removing books from the Bible and changing words. Luther is the father of Sola Scriptora (Scripture Alone),most all non-Catholic Churches if not all non Catholic denominations believe in Sola Scriptora. The ironic thing is that know where in the Bible is Sola Scriptora mentioned, so Luther and all other Bible based Christians denominations are going outside of the Bible to teach this. This the most glarring theological flaw Luther invented. It all starts from here and goes down hill.
I realize that Protestantism has fractured so much over the last 500 years since Luther was the first to do so, that the average Protestant wouldn’t even recognize Luther or his teachings. However he was the Grandfather of Sola Scriptora of which all Protestants now follow. So the thoelogical basis of every Bible based Church eventually goes back to the idea Martin Luther propsed in the early to mid 1500’s.

 

[GKC]

“Lots of things to respond to here, but I’ll keep it brief. The Anglican Church was essentially Protestant almost a century before Cromwell, you’ve skipped alot of years and history there. In doctrine, the Anglican Church started off very Catholic when Henry VIII left the Catholic Church. After Henry, it became more Protestant. With Mary, it was restored to the Catholic fold and the Pope’s jurisdiction. With Elizabeth, you essentially have a compromise. A Church somewhere in the middle between the Calvinists and the Lutherans and, later, between Protestants in general and the Catholic Church. Elizabeth died around 1603. Cromwell didn’t come to power until the 1640s.”

Yep, more or less, to all. Edward VI’s handlers shoved the CoE hard over reformed first. And Elizabeth imposed her Compromise, moderation in all things.

GKC

 

[IsMiseSteise]

One thing about Luther…

I realize that we’re all sinners, but there’s a big difference between being a sinner and being a nutjob. If Luther were around today, he’d have been committed to a mental institution.

Also, Luther was wreaking havoc in Germany during all this while Henry the VIII was wreaking havoc in England.

 

[Scottgun]

P.S. Is it just me, or does anybody else get highly turned off when authors like Swan (Karl Keating does it too in Cath & Fund) use [sic] constantly in their quotes to highlight typos and mispellings? I know it is academically acceptable, but to do it constantly seems childish (haha! You can’t spell/type).

No. Think about it. You write a paper, book or article and leave out the [sic]. You will get letters and calls and comments about your typos which are not your typos. It is universally accepted writing style that anyone who has spent time writing formally knows to use. Don’t read anything into it.

Now if someone cherry-picks: deliberately selects a quote full of typos just to show typos–Yeah, that’s childish.

 

[seek]

It is true the vast majority of Protestants don’t probably
know all that much about Luther. But he opened the can of worms by
advocating Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. His rejection of Papal Authority
and the Magesterium’s authority led to ME, SCRIPTURE, and THE HOLY SPIRIT
AUTHORITY and 29,999 new can of worms and still counting. Luther’s
writings and details of his theology may be foreign to most Protestants,
but his rebellion is the garden where these thousands of denominations
have been planted.

 

[Alexius]

runandsew: I think the fact that Martin Luther was scared for his life during that lighting storm, and prayed to Mary that if he survived it he would become a priest is very telling about how he made ended up becoming an Augustinian Monk.

I thought it was St. Anne? Anyway, he must be in Hell for that…

Jared123: 1.) Pray the Rosary every day for your parents conversion.

2.) Be a good Catholic example (I assume your Catholic?)

3.) Learn as much about the faith as you can.

4.) Be ready to answer any question they may have.

5.) Leave the rest up to God.

Not really …I was baptised by my biological father (who died) and my grandmother (also died) into the Roman Catholic Church, but I was raised outside the Church. Right now I’m trying to decide where to go. I do pray the Rosary, however, because of its beauty (unfortunately my beads fell apart, so I need to get more ) alongside my chotki (Eastern prayer rope). Thanks for the advice:thumbsup: !

lak611: I will pray for your parents that they may return to the Catholic Church. It probably wouldn’t be hard for them to even find a Catholic Bible study nowadays. We have one at my parish. I have been attending for the past five years now. One regular member is a lady who used to be Lutheran and converted to the Catholic Church. She loves Catholic Bible study even better than her old Lutheran Bible study.

Thanks for the suggestion:thumbsup: ! I’ll try to find one and prayerfully convince them to attend…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[lak611]

Not really …I was baptised by my biological father (who died) and my grandmother (also died) into the Roman Catholic Church, but I was raised outside the Church. Right now I’m trying to decide where to go. I do pray the Rosary, however, because of its beauty (unfortunately my beads fell apart, so I need to get more ) alongside my chotki (Eastern prayer rope). Thanks for the advice:thumbsup: !

Alexius, actually you ARE a Catholic. If you were baptised into the Catholic Church, even if you were not raised as a Catholic, by virtue of you baptism, you still are one. If you wish to come back to the Catholic Church, you will need to talk to a priest. He will be able to help you join RCIA for the rest of your Sacraments (Penance, Holy Communion and Confirmation) if you have not already received them; or he may give you personal Catechism instruction so you can receive those Sacraments. If you already received all of these Sacraments, then to come back to the Catholic Church you would only need to receive the Sacrament of Penance. Then you could receive Holy Communion again. God bless you in your faith journey.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I am a convert to Catholicism and during my conversion I had a Priest show me this book. I found it to be very fascinating. I remember thinking “this is the guy who started the Protestant Reformation?” How could anyone follow such a crazy man, yet millions of people have split off from the Catholic Church over the last 500 years because of this man. Forget analyzing Luther, just read his own words. The filth that dribbled from his mouth is amazing. When a person tells you that he can sin as much as he wants doing horrible things and that he can still go to heaven??? I don’t have the book, only borrowed but I wish I could wrtie some the statements Luther wrote word for word, but they probably would be censored.

**Please, either provide the statements or don’t mention them. Anyone can “allude” to ghastly statments while not providing one shred of evidence. **

The best ammunition a Catholics can use in a debate with a Protestant is Luther. His is the source/Founder of all 30,000 Protestant Denominations around the world and he was off his rocker.

Are you a clinical psychologist? What qualifies you to make that diagnosis? Please stop trying to make Luther look bad while letting the Catholic church off the hook. What bad and crazy things did the Catholic church do huh? For what reason or reasons did Luther ultimately decide to just leave the Catholic church? Could it just maybe be that he was forced to and that he also had to because they were off THEIR rocker?