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ZhaneAugustine
Guest
Rickon, I do feel a bit sorry for him being so young. Still he is a Stark. If he survives his enemies he’ll be fine
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Baelor
Guest
From another thread, posted because it is obviously relevant (SPOILERS):
What are people’s opinions on the fifth book?
Granted, but I never found Tyrion to be the basis for my enjoyment, so this was not as big of an issue for me.
Although many readers disliked the Daenerys chapters, I thought they were fantastic, and caught me off-guard. Martin excellently avoided the progression of her character as a Mary-Sue who faced no resistance because of her dragons. I think that people were too caught up with expectations of plot progress, which I can understand, instead of focusing on the characters, which is ultimately the driving force of the series – that the characters make real decisions and these decisions have consequences. Martin’s treatment of Daenerys in the fifth book was wonderful to me precisely because it was so frustrating. After three books of rooting for her (I am a Targ loyalist) but recognizing that she has not yet faced conflict, we see her stumble and fall in a hard way.
This never really bothered me, but to each his own.
What are people’s opinions on the fifth book?
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TrueLight
Guest
I saw season 1 episodes 9 and 10 yesterday. Now mind you, I read the series.
However, the sex scenes in the TV Series causes me to sin.
However, the sex scenes in the TV Series causes me to sin.
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SilverCamellia
Guest
I too enjoyed books 1 to 4, and I bought the book 5 paperback when it was released, but I haven’t read books 1-4 for ages now, and I haven’t read book 5 either. The huge task of reading them and trying to remember who is who and what happened to who is putting me off 
But I think they are brilliantly written. I came across ‘A Game of Thrones’ when I was browsing in a book shop years ago. I began reading it and loved it, but decided not to buy it because of the cost, in case I didn’t like it. But that night I couldn’t stop thinking of the vivid scenes in my imagination (as it begins at the Wall) and the next day I went straight back and bought all the books that had been released, lol.
The sex and the violence in the books surprised me, but I think it is all there for a reason (to emphasise the brutality of their universe). The incest between the brother and sister (can’t remember their names) shocked me, but it does show how degenerate they are.
As somebody else wrote, I am also wondering if the series will ever be completed
But I think they are brilliantly written. I came across ‘A Game of Thrones’ when I was browsing in a book shop years ago. I began reading it and loved it, but decided not to buy it because of the cost, in case I didn’t like it. But that night I couldn’t stop thinking of the vivid scenes in my imagination (as it begins at the Wall) and the next day I went straight back and bought all the books that had been released, lol.
The sex and the violence in the books surprised me, but I think it is all there for a reason (to emphasise the brutality of their universe). The incest between the brother and sister (can’t remember their names) shocked me, but it does show how degenerate they are.
As somebody else wrote, I am also wondering if the series will ever be completed
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7Daniel53IF
Guest
I read all five of the books currently released. I’ll be honest. Seeing as this is Catholic Answers, the truth being told is that ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ is largely based on shades of grey. A character who seems pure evil will go ahead and do something noble in the blink of an eye. What’s important is understanding how writers use symbolism. If you are true of faith, don’t be surprised at negative symbolism towards Christianity. The Seven Gods of the south are described in the fourth book to be one in the same, such as we consider The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit the same. Yet when described you will find the response (open or in thought) mocking the idea of devoting ones self to what cannot be comprehended. You will find numbers, said to be imperfect by the bible, being used in cases of fortune and Holy numbers being used by wicked characters. All in all, it’s not religious characters the books will bind you to, but the characters who run into them. With constant sarcasm shown toward principles of these religions that we ourselves share in our own faith, it’s difficult not to feel like Martin is discouraging faith. While on the other hand provoking ideas of the comforts of lust, intoxication, hatred for certain characters and a constant push for vengeance. The only Gods in the story that seem real are more demonic or based on earthly inner god type concepts. Then comes promoting suicide when it comes to cases of suffering or broken hearts, which was in quite a few cases clearly pushed in a bias manner that hints at it being more heroic and dignified. The Writing is very good, and the degree of intellect involved in politics, manipulation and battle strategy is incredible. The story is altogether spellbinding, hence the reason I find it dangerous. Especially for young minds. The more brutal Characters tend to win the most popularity. And anyone with half a brain knows that HBO wouldnt pick up a series that encouraged faith. If works of fantasy dont convey clear messages of faith and virtue, you can hardly encourage others to read them without risking an offense against God. No, it’s not the convenient answer, but it’s what I found to be true. I don’t plan on reading the next volume to come out.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Who in their right mind would consider these series for children?
You’d be hard pressed to back up your decision then if the material in the next installment will start contradicting points in your current assessment.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
I have seen the show and read excerpts from the books (such excerpts are fairly easy to find on the Net). I also have read that, yes, GRRM is a lapsed Catholic and now professes to be either an atheist or an agnostic. I am sure that, by itself, would make his works taboo for some.
However, I actually find GRRM to be quite fair in his approach to religion, unlike, say, a Phillip Pullman. It seems fairly obvious that the Faith of the Seven is modeled on the Catholic Church, the idea of a God with Seven Faces is very similar to the Trinity, the Seven Pointed Star as a symbol of this God is similar to the Shamrock, and the structure of the Faith is certainly very close to Catholic ones; their priests are called Septons and the leader, the High Septon, is elected by a Council of Most Devout in the same way the Cardinals elect a Pope, while their nuns are called Septas.
(And much like Christianity, the Faith started in Essos, which is certainly modeled after the Middle East, and spread to Westeros, modeled after medieval England/Europe, but essentially died out in Essos itself, somewhat similar to how Christians are now a minority in the Middle East.)
Though interestingly, although portraying Westeros in general as a very patriarchal society, GRRM chose to depict the Faith as a trifle more egalitarian; Septas are on the Council of Most Devout and take part in electing a High Septon, and of the Seven Aspects, three are female (Mother, Maiden, Crone), three are male (Father, Warrior, Smith), and one is asexual (The Stranger, who is the Death aspect of the god).
Now, GRRM does show corruption in the Faith equivalent of the Vatican during the story, as the first High Septon we meet is described as fat and corrupt, and is torn apart by an angry mob during a bread riot; but the second is described as a devout man, though a weak-willed one; the third is a firebrand reformer of humble origins. Some individual Septons and Septas are presented sympathetically, while others are not. But I didn’t get any sense that “all members of the Faith are corrupt and insincere”. One of the morally questionable characters who has committed atrocities, later winds up becoming the equivalent of a monk after a near-death experience, and this seemed to be portrayed as a positive development.
As for how the religious lives of major characters are depicted, whether of the Faith or of other religions, GRRM depicts people with many shades of religiosity; the only real atheist I can think of, (at least at the start of the story) is Stannis, but he does have sympathetic reasons for his disbelief, as when he was a child, he prayed for his parents to be saved from a shipwreck but they still drowned.
Tyrion is depicted as a worldly man who doesn’t pay much attention to religion except in terms of the political aspects of the Faith, but I don’t recall him ever actually denying a belief in God. (The same is true for Jaime, Cersei, and others who are very secular in their outlook but don’t seem to actually reject the concept of the divine either.) Catelyn and Davos are depicted as sincere believers of the Faith but it’s not presented as a bad thing at all. (BTW, there is a BIG difference in the TV and book versions of Davos in this, the TV version is an atheist, but he is a believer in the book.)
Of course there are religious fanatics depicted in the books as well, yet Melisandre, the Red Priestess, and Aeron Greyjoy, a priest of the Drowned God, both get POVs and are surprisingly sympathetic in them.
Now, while SOME fans of the books are atheists themselves and claim “the Gods are depicted as false”, I think the events themselves leave room for open-mindedness. Prayers are not always answered, but sometimes are in mysterious ways.
Certainly, the books do have explicit sexual content (though many of the scenes are actually quite brief and vague) and this may pose a problem to some, but I didn’t find the depiction of religion to be that offensive.
However, I actually find GRRM to be quite fair in his approach to religion, unlike, say, a Phillip Pullman. It seems fairly obvious that the Faith of the Seven is modeled on the Catholic Church, the idea of a God with Seven Faces is very similar to the Trinity, the Seven Pointed Star as a symbol of this God is similar to the Shamrock, and the structure of the Faith is certainly very close to Catholic ones; their priests are called Septons and the leader, the High Septon, is elected by a Council of Most Devout in the same way the Cardinals elect a Pope, while their nuns are called Septas.
(And much like Christianity, the Faith started in Essos, which is certainly modeled after the Middle East, and spread to Westeros, modeled after medieval England/Europe, but essentially died out in Essos itself, somewhat similar to how Christians are now a minority in the Middle East.)
Though interestingly, although portraying Westeros in general as a very patriarchal society, GRRM chose to depict the Faith as a trifle more egalitarian; Septas are on the Council of Most Devout and take part in electing a High Septon, and of the Seven Aspects, three are female (Mother, Maiden, Crone), three are male (Father, Warrior, Smith), and one is asexual (The Stranger, who is the Death aspect of the god).
Now, GRRM does show corruption in the Faith equivalent of the Vatican during the story, as the first High Septon we meet is described as fat and corrupt, and is torn apart by an angry mob during a bread riot; but the second is described as a devout man, though a weak-willed one; the third is a firebrand reformer of humble origins. Some individual Septons and Septas are presented sympathetically, while others are not. But I didn’t get any sense that “all members of the Faith are corrupt and insincere”. One of the morally questionable characters who has committed atrocities, later winds up becoming the equivalent of a monk after a near-death experience, and this seemed to be portrayed as a positive development.
As for how the religious lives of major characters are depicted, whether of the Faith or of other religions, GRRM depicts people with many shades of religiosity; the only real atheist I can think of, (at least at the start of the story) is Stannis, but he does have sympathetic reasons for his disbelief, as when he was a child, he prayed for his parents to be saved from a shipwreck but they still drowned.
Tyrion is depicted as a worldly man who doesn’t pay much attention to religion except in terms of the political aspects of the Faith, but I don’t recall him ever actually denying a belief in God. (The same is true for Jaime, Cersei, and others who are very secular in their outlook but don’t seem to actually reject the concept of the divine either.) Catelyn and Davos are depicted as sincere believers of the Faith but it’s not presented as a bad thing at all. (BTW, there is a BIG difference in the TV and book versions of Davos in this, the TV version is an atheist, but he is a believer in the book.)
Of course there are religious fanatics depicted in the books as well, yet Melisandre, the Red Priestess, and Aeron Greyjoy, a priest of the Drowned God, both get POVs and are surprisingly sympathetic in them.
Now, while SOME fans of the books are atheists themselves and claim “the Gods are depicted as false”, I think the events themselves leave room for open-mindedness. Prayers are not always answered, but sometimes are in mysterious ways.
Certainly, the books do have explicit sexual content (though many of the scenes are actually quite brief and vague) and this may pose a problem to some, but I didn’t find the depiction of religion to be that offensive.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Come to think of it, the High Sparrow’s (a.k.a. High Septon #3) action and behavior bear a strong resemblance to the MO of our current Pope. Heck, the actor playing him in the upcoming season even looks a lot like him!
http://www.amazefamily.com/wp-conte...nathan-pryce-high-sparrow-game-of-thrones.png
http://cdn1.relevantmediagroup.com/sites/default/files/field/thumbnail/Pope-Francis-009.jpg
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Uh, I wouldn’t quite say that. The High Sparrow DOES seek to root out corruption in the Faith, and some of his actions I can see having parallels with Pope Francis’s actions, such as forcing the Most Devout to scrub floors, and selling his crown (well, actually, it was Pope Paul VI who did that).Come to think of it, the High Sparrow’s (a.k.a. High Septon #3) action and behavior bear a strong resemblance to the MO of our current Pope. Heck, the actor playing him in the upcoming season even looks a lot like him!
But he also orders torture to elicit confessions, and is very harsh and unforgiving towards sexual sin. I doubt Pope Francis would ever act that way. Also, the High Sparrow was introduced as a book character way before Pope Francis was elected. If anyone, I think the High Sparrow is based on Girolamo Savonarola, a Dominican priest who called for reform during the papacy of Alexander VI (the infamously corrupt Pope depicted in The Borgias).
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
True that. I’m just suggesting that they both share a central aversion to moral compromise which inadvertently creates a sort of faction that wants nothing to do with the power struggles of the world. In their own way, they practice what they preach regardless of who pays the expense (with the Sparrow obviously more physically brutal than our Pope I’ll give you that
). Although, sometimes I wonder if his employ of torture is really his zealotry talking or is he actually quite as cunning as he is devout. It’s really rare for me to learn of a fiercely religious fictional character with a strategic mind that rivals less morally hardened rulers.I’m not really suggesting that Martin was influenced by Francis by the time he created the character. I do think though that these unexpected parallels could crop up by the time the character hits television screens.
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Thomas48
Guest
Great books and a great show!
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7Daniel53IF
Guest
I spent so many hours of my life reading and watching things like this. When I read “The Silmarillion” by J.R.R. Tolkien I was so inspired that I went back to church and reconciled after years of teenage rebellion. That impact wasn’t to be found elsewhere tho, as I’ve only recently admitted to myself. Other fantasies were more about sensationalism. I got lost in their worlds easily. The main point I was attempting to make is simply that we are living in a very evil time in reality. The Church is attacked from the outside, and within. I can’t continue diving into entertainment with a clear conscience (tho that doesn’t mean i’m incapable of failing). I think all other Catholics are being put to the same test. While Christians across the oceans are being persecuted, we are debating fantasy and whether or not these kinds of stories are good or bad. There is no in between in true devotion. The Church teaches that very clearly. Jesus didn’t talk about it being difficult to get into heaven for no reason. It’s all or nothing. As for young minds, I’m talking about teenagers, and teenagers are definitely on board with the show, even if not the books. If our entertainment doesn’t direct people to God, then it isn’t for the service of God. If it’s not for the service of God than satan is undeniably involved. It’s not what I want to believe, but what I do believe. Whether you are of the faith or not, this is a Catholic Answer from a Catholic. If you aren’t a Catholic then know that there are real Catholics and fake Catholics. The real ones will say it as it is. The fake ones will conform and compromise for the sake of convenience, acceptance, and popularity because their faith is too weak to accept the truth for themselves and to believe others would accept the truth if they did give testimony to it. Everything is relevant to the story of the truth, including the lies that stand against it. Even seemingly simple matters like fantasy novels.
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