Books on Islam vs. Catholicism

[GaryTaylor]

There’s also a problem in his disseminating false information.

And you conclude this from that post??? Its called hear-say.

 

[aspirant]

Its called hear-say.

“Yet slaveholding, a topic of perennial reproach in the history of the United States, is today practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom, but only in Muslim lands,” is not “hearsay” but a direct quote from Robert Spencer. It may be found in his book Islam Unveiled (Encounter: San Francisco; 2002) in the second full paragraph on page 63 (emphasis in original).

As I said before:

aspirant:

Surely Spencer cannot be speaking of legal slavery? Mauritania was the last country to abolish slavery (in 1981)…

But if he means that illegal slavery only exists in Muslim lands today, or that conditions which may rightly be called slavery but are not deemed so by law exist only in Muslim lands today, then Spencer is very, very wrong indeed. Illegal slavery is practiced here in the United States, in Europe, and in many other places around the world, and certainly not exclusively by Muslims. Denying this does not help anyone’s understanding of Islam so much as it harms their awareness of profound injustices taking place right under our noses. And conditions which may rightly be called slavery but are not deemed so by law exist in plenty of non-Muslim nations, such as forced penal labor in North Korea.

As far as I can tell, the only purpose Spencer’s statement serves is to prejudice readers against Islam, which makes the complaints we’ve read about Spencer’s work understandable. And the negative impact of such a statement may reach much further than Christian-Muslim relations, inasmuch as it can discourage reader awareness of the profound need to address slavery in non-Muslim lands as well as Muslim ones.

Is slavery illegal in nations such as Mauritania? Yes:
“Slavery persists in parts of Mauritania even though it was banned in 1981,” (BBC).
“In 1981, Mauritania became the last country in the world to abolish slavery,” (CNN).
“Slavery is not legal anywhere but happens everywhere,” (Free the Slaves).

Does illegal slavery continue across the world, including “within the former bounds of Christendom”? Yes:

Europe has a huge problem with slavery right now-- hundreds of thousands of people are trafficked through Europe annually. Although every nation in the world now has laws prohibiting slavery, there are an estimated 30 million slaves around the world today on every populated continent. It’s a $30+ billion dollar industry, and about half that amount is generated in industrialized economies. An estimated 7% of human trafficking occurs in the European Union, United States, Canada, Australia, Israel, and Japan.

Information about illegal slavery, even “within the former bounds of Christendom,” including personal testimonies of former slaves, can be found on innumerable anti-slavery websites. If you do not believe this, feel free to directly contact International Justice Mission, Not for Sale, Polaris Project, Anti-Slavery International, Free the Slaves, ECPAT International, etc., and ask them yourself whether Robert Spencer’s claim that slavery continues “only in Muslim lands” is true.

That illegal slavery continues across the globe is a fact recognized by the Holy See, most recently by Pope Francis:
Pope Francis:

Yes, Christ is our peace, and through him we implore peace for all the world… Peace in the whole world, still divided by greed looking for easy gain, wounded by the selfishness which threatens human life and the family, selfishness that continues in human trafficking, the most extensive form of slavery in this twenty-first century; human trafficking is the most extensive form of slavery in this twenty-first century!

Recent popes have also recognized that illegal slavery continues within the borders of Europe itself. Pope Benedict XVI’s September 2010 address to members of the Bureau of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe included this concern:
Pope Benedict XVI:

I am happy to receive you on the sixtieth anniversary of the European Convention on Human Rights which, as is well known, commits Member States of the Council of Europe to promote and defend the inviolable dignity of the human person.

I know that the Parliamentary Assembly has on its agenda important topics that deal above all with persons who live in particularly difficult situations or are subjected to grave violations of their dignity. I have in mind people afflicted with handicaps, children who suffer violence, immigrants, refugees, those who pay the most for the present economic and financial crisis, those who are victims of extremism or of new forms of slavery such as human trafficking, the illegal drug trade and prostitution. Your work also is concerned with victims of warfare and with people who live in fragile democracies. I have also been informed of your efforts to defend religious freedom and to oppose violence and intolerance against believers in Europe and worldwide.

Robert Spencer’s erroneous claim that “slaveholding… is today practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom, but only in Muslim lands” is does a profound, egregious injustice to slaves being trafficked in other nations, including slaves being trafficked and abused right here in the United States.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Assumption, based on “IF” he’s talking illegal or legal. fact is you cherry picked a quote and don’t know what he is talking about. Or you intentionally cut and pasted a cherry picked quote in disregard of the content/context. So do you have the entire context or are you assuming?

We had this conversation about Robert Spencer you fell short in it aspirant. Your on a witch hunt. And from what I see to defend a “complete heresy” over a Catholic? I find your position questionable to say the least.

You start your above post on the oh so failing position of… “If”? IF?

Then in your “assumption” you go here… “Surely Spencer cannot be speaking of legal slavery? Mauritania was the last country to abolish slavery (in 1981)”

Watch now, from here…

“Yet slaveholding, a topic of perennial reproach in the history of the United States, is today practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom, but only in Muslim lands,”

Nice try.

And all that to discredit this man for whatever reason. Wait, wait I’ll “assume” like you …to validate Islam, a historic Christian Heresy. Straight out of the lake of fire. Killing Christians abundantly day in and day out.

And yes Slavery is the Islamic calling card. “Under Foot” I believe is the term you use? Very Islamic sounding.

I see you can’t leave this alone, and in your “opinion” over CAF,

Tough choice CAF or aspirant? And the answer is?

 

[aspirant]

So do you have the entire context or are you assuming?

I am familiar with the context and, indeed, have the entire book sitting right here. Spencer himself does not specify whether he is talking about legal or illegal slavery. What Spencer actually says, as I have demonstrated, is incorrect regardless whether he means legal or illegal slavery, and does profound injustice to humans being trafficked around the world today.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am familiar with the context and, indeed, have the entire book sitting right here. Spencer himself does not specify whether he is talking about legal or illegal slavery. What Spencer actually says, as I have demonstrated, is incorrect regardless whether he means legal or illegal slavery, and does profound injustice to humans being trafficked around the world today.

No he is not incorrect in what he is stating. Your logic is incorrect.

Slavery is outlawed in all countries. Your 1981 statement in then moot. The rest is pure speculation.

Islam is Slavery and by your own admission, Under Foot in your own words.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Lets look at what Spencer is saying.

orthodoxytoday.org/articles8/Spencer-Slavery-Christianity-Islam.php

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/07/atlas-exclusive-robert-spencer-islam-and-sex-slavery.html

“The dirty secret behind such reports is that this behavior is sanctioned in Islam.”

 

[aspirant]

No he is not incorrect in what he is stating.

He is incorrect. Slavery continues today in non-Muslim lands as well as “Muslim lands.”

Slavery is outlawed in all countries.

Yet slavery continues across the globe.

The rest is pure speculation.

What speculation? That there are, contrary to what Spencer claimed, currently slaves within what used to be Christendom as well as predominantly Muslim countries?

 

[GaryTaylor]

He is incorrect.

This is false logic, there are no former bounds of Christendom, where Slavery is practiced. You have nothing to stand on with this but “criminals” that’s what you are now comparing Islam with

And Amen, we I believe are finally in agreement. Spencer is a voice that will continue to speak in this oh so dumbed up world in view of Islam. So will Pam Geller.

I believe Spencers book is on the Bestsellers list.

 

[aspirant]

there are no former bounds of Christendom, where Slavery is practiced.

This makes no sense. The term “Christendom” refers to nations in which Christianity is/was the established religion and/or nations in which Christianity is/was the majority religion. Contrary to Spencer’s erroneous claim, slavery is indeed practiced in these nations as well as many others around the world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Christendom” refers to nations.

What Nations practice it today which are not Islamic and were indeed Christian?

You make no sense.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Robert Spencer pg 63 in content/context can be viewed here[along with a great deal of the book with this “sentence” in question]

scribd.com/doc/15192640/Islam-Unveiled-by-Robert-Spencer

“Non muslims in at least two muslim countries Sudan and Mauricania also face the threat of slavery. This is a especially touchy issue for Islam because its apologists often refer to slavery in the West to compare Islam favorably with Christianity. Yet slaveholding a topic of perennial reproach in the history of the United States is practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom but only in muslim lands.”



Seems to me the paragraph which I gave you the opportunity to post, is referring to the West and “then” in particular the United States.

 

[Trebor135]

Robert Spencer pg 63 in content/context can be viewed here[along with a great deal of the book with this “sentence” in question]

scribd.com/doc/15192640/Islam-Unveiled-by-Robert-Spencer

“Non muslims in at least two muslim countries Sudan and Mauricania also face the threat of slavery. This is a especially touchy issue for Islam because its apologists often refer to slavery in the West to compare Islam favorably with Christianity. Yet slaveholding a topic of perennial reproach in the history of the United States is practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom but only in muslim lands.”



Seems to me the paragraph which I gave you the opportunity to post, is referring to the West and “then” in particular the United States.

First, there aren’t any countries by the name of Mauricania on the world map. Second, according to the CIA World Factbook entry on the actual Northwest African nation of Mauritania,

“Ethnic groups”: “mixed Moor/black 40%, Moor 30%, black 30%”

“Religions”: “Muslim (official) 100%”

In light of this data, Spencer’s claim that “non-Muslims” are being enslaved not only in Sudan but also in Mauritania doesn’t add up. In none of the latter’s neighbours–Algeria, Mali, Senegal, and Western Sahara–are there significant Christian minorities to draw upon for such purposes. The slavery that went on, and may still be going on, in Mauritania must therefore have a purely racial foundation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m sorry did I miss-spell a word? My bad. Probably don’t add up. Do they face a threat Trebor? I “think” that’s what Spencer said?

onislam.net/english/news/africa/426801

news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/islamist-blamed-for-mauritania-attack-20090810-eef6.html

worldpress.org/print_article.cfm?article_id=3182

zenit.org/en/articles/southern-sudan-under-new-attacks

aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/201291482159758224.html

No need to comment on the last two sentences by Spencer I suppose that’s a wrap.

Threat, being the key word I suppose.

 

[Trebor135]

Gary–no problem, I was concerned Spencer had made the Mauricania typo.

What raised my eyebrows was his statement, “Non muslims in at least two muslim countries Sudan and Mauricania also face the threat of slavery.” If a group is “[facing] the threat of slavery”, there must be a segment which has actually been or is undergoing this evil. But there are hardly any “non-Muslims” to speak of in and around Mauritania anyway. So, what gives?

 

[aspirant]

What Nations practice it today which are not Islamic and were indeed Christian?

Neither Robert Spencer (in the passage cited) nor I are talking about slavery practiced by any nations. We are saying that slavery is practiced in nations. Spencer erroneously claims that it is practiced “only in Muslim lands.” His claim is false, and does profound injustice to people enslaved across the globe, including many non-Muslim nations and including nations that have been or are predominantly Christian. If you do not believe this, feel free to directly contact International Justice Mission, Not for Sale, Polaris Project, Anti-Slavery International, Free the Slaves, ECPAT International, etc., and ask them yourself whether Robert Spencer’s claim that slavery continues “only in Muslim lands” is true.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We are saying. Spencer erroneously claims that it is practiced “only in Muslim lands.”

Who’s we? You and who else?

So what “WE” are saying is while Spencer points out the Religion of Slavery in all is atrocity with total disregard for human rights on a world level, you want to discredit him because he doesn’t acknowledge criminal elements who trespass.

Again you[we, whoever that is] make a “global” connection when I just showed you that’s not what this paragraph states.

Your understating “or WE” that slavery is practiced in nations, isn’t Spencer’s but I realize in false logic you would like to accredit him with this.

"Non muslims in at least two muslim countries Sudan and Mauricania also face the threat of slavery. .

Not saying what your saying. Non-muslims are referenced, two areas threatened.

" This is a especially touchy issue for Islam because its apologists often refer to slavery in the West to compare Islam favorably with Christianity…

Still not saying what your saying.

" Yet slaveholding a topic of perennial reproach in the history of the United States is practiced not within the former bounds of Christendom but only in muslim lands." .

And still not saying what your saying. The comparison is the United States to muslim land.

You are comparing Islam to Criminals and blaming it on Spencer. Yes they are no different than organized Crime.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Non muslims in at least two muslim countries Sudan and Mauricania also face the threat of slavery.” If a group is “[facing] the threat of slavery”, there must be a segment which has actually been or is undergoing this evil. But there are hardly any “non-Muslims” to speak of in and around Mauritania anyway. So, what gives?

The government was overthrown in 2008, there is constant radicalized movement as we see above determined to impose strict Sharia Law.

I posted the links, non-muslim is his reference here not specifically Christianity. [Hardly any] What does that have to do with anything in understanding what’s occurring and what is said? I’m not following your thinking or what that has to do with anything?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

 

[GaryTaylor]

Some posters here would recommend Robert Spencer. Though I don’t quite agree with his approach on this subject, his books are good read on Islam.

This above, is really the point of view one may well indeed take. The mental gymnastics in critical view of specific words, such as above doesn’t change the overall message of Spencer or his message.

There is not one Saint who was always right, not one theologian, and not one apologist or author. All should be seen in their overall view and understanding of the related topic. To dissect a paragraph to the degree already done, is to disregard the overall message in favor of what I see as NO GOOD REASON.

I see no reason to continue to elaborate on this paragraph. I acknowledge the above argument and I disagree with it and the facts are laid out for all to read. Safe to say at this point its not my goal to “convince,” the points have been expressed in relation to this one paragraph.

I’ll give you this though I believe whoever edited this book certainly didn’t do it any justice. Nor is it the intention of the OP to critically evaluate any book listed, Nor is my opinion more relevant than any other here. The book reviews can be read, Spencer’s books have been on the bestsellers list. thus they have been judged, by large, by society. That speaks for itself. As does the fact its advertised here at CAF.

In retrospect there is not one book that will be mentioned in this thread, which I can’t cherry pick a sentence out and spend 10-page’s here in a critical assault to attempt to devalue the entire content of the book thus message. Anyone I believe with an open mind already KNOWs THIS.

Thanks for the enlightened conversation though. Much love and God Bless.

 

[Trebor135]

The government was overthrown in 2008, there is constant radicalized movement as we see above determined to impose strict Sharia Law.

I posted the links, non-muslim is his reference here not specifically Christianity. [Hardly any] What does that have to do with anything in understanding what’s occurring and what is said? I’m not following your thinking or what that has to do with anything?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

I’m not disputing that slavery has been a serious problem in Mauritania. I’m contesting that it has anything to do with non-Muslims (and never stated it would have to affect Christians only).

 

[aspirant]

you want to discredit {Spencer} because he doesn’t acknowledge criminal elements who trespass.

Spencer explicitly denies that tens of millions of people are enslaved around the world right now, doing a grave injustice to people enslaved in the United States, Europe, and many other “non-Muslim lands” right now. That people are enslaved here is intrinsically evil, no light matter. His denial deserves to be discredited.

The comparison is the United States to muslim land.

People are enslaved here in the United States right now. Denying that is a grave injustice.