Borderline Idolatry?

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dronald said:
I watched the video, I’m not Catholic and all I can say is it’s very hard to understand the hearts and minds of each person in the crowd. They honestly seemed surprised for the most part, and it may have stunned a couple of people, I don’t know; I’m not them.

Should someone go mad and begin wailing because of a statue? No, of course not, but the reasons someone may have are entirely unknown to both you and I, so who are we to judge?
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Hey dronald…I’d like a second opinion…
Did you hear “ceaseless wailing” on that video?

Peace
James
 
po18guy said:
No mistake at all! Please answer how the example given is not bible idolatry.
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ummm I really don’t see how this is relevant… but heres my take:
  1. The Bible discovers and convicts us of sin.
  2. The Bible helps cleanse us from the pollutions of sin.
  3. The Bible imparts strength.
  4. The Bible instructs us in what we are to do.
  5. The Bible provides us with a sword for victory over sin.
  6. The Bible makes our lives fruitful.
  7. The Bible gives us power to pray.
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To me, this appears to awfully close to idolatry, as each of the underlined is a divine trait that is normally associated with the Holy Spirit. Very odd indeed that such persons who deny that God’s grace flows through the Sacraments, which are administered by a Priest or Bishop, go on to believe that God’s grace flows through the simple possession of a bible.
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I think it does stray too close to idolotry. But maybe its his word choice, replace “The Bible” with “The Word” and its better. The physical book with paper and ink is worthless. It does nothing in and of itself. It is the message on those pages, the “Living Word” that is meaningful and thats probably what this guy meant.
How odd that those who deny the presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist seem to believe that He lives between the covers of a bible. Odd, indeed.
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Where did this come from?! Who here denied the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
What if you are just plain wrong and “things are not always what they appear to be”?
Two points to ponder:
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  1. The Catholic Church defines “rash judgment” as a sin.
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So then co-habitation is okay?
  1. Iconoclasm was condemned as a heresy centuries ago.
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Which is referring to the movement that sought to completely abandon all physical statues and icons. Which is irrelevant here.
This is something new to me - could you post your source for this (official Catholic teaching document please).
I am aware that we are warned against acting in a manner that might cause scandal…is that perhaps what you are referring to?
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Thats exactly what I was referring to. Do you suggest that practicing idolatry would not cause a scandal?
 
JRKH said:
Hey dronald…I’d like a second opinion…
Did you hear “ceaseless wailing” on that video?

Peace
James
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No, not really. If someone did that would be my reply though. 🙂

Btw, my answer has nothing to do with what’s spiritually acceptable. Just personally I wouldn’t freak out too much over a statue smashing on the ground. I would probably say, “meh, it happens; that stinks.” and be over with it.
 
dronald said:
No, not really. If someone did that would be my reply though. 🙂

Btw, my answer has nothing to do with what’s spiritually acceptable. Just personally I wouldn’t freak out too much over a statue smashing on the ground. I would probably say, “meh, it happens; that stinks.” and be over with it.
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Thanks for the feedback…Just wanted a second - non-Catholic - opinion.

I think that we can all agree that in a group there will be a lot of different reactions and a lot of “crowd noise”…That is what am hearing crowd noise that is consistent with the crashing of this large object.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
You seem to be reading an awful lot into into a 39 second snippet of what went on there.
There was noise going on in the background…Yes…Was it wailing? Was it “ceaseless wailing” as you state in your OP? To the first question I have to say it’s hard to tell with so much noise. But assuming that some DID cry - or even “wail” - 25 seconds of video hardly supposes “ceaseless” wailing.
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Oh come on, well after the statue fell people were still crying and moaning in the background. Why would a mere piece of clay breaking elicit such reaction?
 
xCortarx said:
Oh come on, well after the statue fell people were still crying and moaning in the background. Why would a mere piece of clay breaking elicit such reaction?
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I have expressed my views in my previous posts…views that you seem to be choosing to ignore. But I will review just for clarity’s sake.
  1. You used the phrase “ceaseless wailing” in your OP. The video is 39 seconds long and only about 25 seconds of that is after the accident. This is hardly sufficient to determine something is "ceaseless.
  2. I’ve yet to hear much of any “wailing” let alone ceaseless wailing - (your words remember). I do hear “shock and awe”…and surprise etc…but again - this does not constitute ceaseless wailing.
  3. Crowds are going to take some time to settle down. As I mentioned to dronald, different people react in different ways. You are seeking to apply a single emotional response to an entire group. Well - this just doesn’t work.
  4. (and this is a new thought)…If you want to assume that there is idolatry going on, I suggest you go back and look at the video again. This time watch the ladies in the first pew. These women are religious sisters. Do they look like they are are ceaselessly wailing? Of everyone there - if there is idolatry going on - you would expect these women to be the most upset…Yet they are not. Initial the sister on the end flops down - probably from the shock of seeing this very big statue tumbling down but then they seem to be more interested in what is what is going on behind them than in what just happened to the statue.
If you want to discuss issues surrounding Catholic veneration of icons (including statues) that is fine - you will receive much lively feedback.
My singular point is this.
You present this video as some sort of evidence and ask the following
I understand people’s initial shock when the statue break, but does the ceaseless wailing after the fact cross the line?
OK - I’ve addressed this…since the video is too short to establish that the wailing (such as it is) was “ceaseless” we cannot establish that a line was crossed.
And follow that question up with this observation.
From the way the congregation sounded devastated it seems like the statue meant more to than than just a piece of clay.
I think that it is fair to say that something can mean more to a person than just a piece of clay and still fall well short of idolatry.

And by the way - have you found the Catholic teaching that says appearance of sin = sin?

Peace
James
 
JRKH gave you five very plausible reasons - aside from idolatry - why someone might react so emotionally. This was your response:
xCortarx said:
Im sorry but I think you mistakenly posted in the wrong thread because I have no clue what point you are trying to make.
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It seems pretty clear to me that you’ve come here with a very specific agenda to falsely accuse Catholics of being idolators. Your blindness to reasonable arguments to the contrary seems to confirm that.

As others have said, it’s a short clip and the people visible, especially the nuns, don’t seem particularly distraught. There might be 1 or 2 people “wailing” from off-camera.

Let’s see: 1-2 people out of hundreds(?) are overly emotional. There’s many plausible explanations (as JRKH gave). How about one of those people spent six months running a fundraising campaign to have the statute made and it all went to waste in 5 seconds? Valid reason to be upset for 15 seconds?

Your conclusion that Catholics are idolators is the least reasonable conclusion one could draw. But I’m guessing your “conclusion” predated your viewing of the video, based on your axe-grinding first post.

If you care to learn, stick around and learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches. It’s not what you’ve been told by non-Catholics, but it is wonderful and amazing and was instituted by Jesus Christ.

If you’re just here to troll, well, your account won’t be active long.
 
Indeed.

That’s why I post on these topics so that Catholics don’t assume that we’re all like this.
 
xCortarx said:
The point where using an idol becomes idolatry.

In response to a physical object being broken? No. I do not place that much value on inanimate objects.
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Which in turn gives you the right to judge the hearts and minds of others, correct?
 
dronald said:
Which in turn gives you the right to judge the hearts and minds of others, correct?
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No, but when you see someone stray near sin should you not try to help them out and get them on the right path?
 
xCortarx said:
You already know full well what I am talking about, you mentioned it, but here it is anyways:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P80.HTM
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OK - that’s what I figured it must be.

Scandal, and the various aspects of it, is something quite different than what you stated - which I repeat here for clarity…
One more point, Catholics are taught that even the appearance of a sin is just as bad as sin itself
How something “appears” has as much to do with the person looking as it does with the person acting.
And in the case of the supposed “Idolatry”, since most every Catholic I know is well aware that we do not worship statues, the various actions we might take are not misconstrued by our fellow Catholics. Thus - our actions are not giving an appearance of sin - unless of course the sin is in the “eye of the beholder”.
And this is something we cannot control.

Suppose a non-Catholic sees the action, which is well understood by Catholics as not being idolatry - and that person assumes the action is idolatrous.
Where does the culpability lie in this case?
The person can easily ask and Catholics will happily explain that they are not worshiping the statue (or whatever). They can easily find out the true teachings of the Church on these matters - just as you have done here.

In your case you have presented a case and asked about it. Many have replied covering various aspects of the matter in an effort to help you better understand Church teaching.
Of course we cannot control what you do with that information - just as we cannot control what another might assume when they see a certain action take place.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
OK - that’s what I figured it must be.

Scandal, and the various aspects of it, is something quite different than what you stated - which I repeat here for clarity…
One more point, Catholics are taught that even the appearance of a sin is just as bad as sin itself
How something “appears” has as much to do with the person looking as it does with the person acting.
And in the case of the supposed “Idolatry”, since most every Catholic I know is well aware that we do not worship statues, the various actions we might take are not misconstrued by our fellow Catholics. Thus - our actions are not giving an appearance of sin - unless of course the sin is in the “eye of the beholder”.
And this is something we cannot control.
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So by this logic then co-habitation is fine. Person A sees a Man and Woman living together, but Person A knows Catholics don’t engage in premarital sex so its fine.
 
xCortarx said:
So by this logic then co-habitation is fine. Person A sees a Man and Woman living together, but Person A knows Catholics don’t engage in premarital sex so its fine.
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Co habitation is discouraged, not so much because of what person A might think but because of the “near occasion of sin” it presents to those practicing it.
Cohabiting is not, in itself, sinful.

If they have questions or concerns, person A can ask. If they choose not to ask and instead make assumptions - where does the culpability lie?

Peace
James
 
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